all contrails are contrails.Originally Posted by Woody
"chemtrails" that supposedly look and behave exactly like contrails have not been shown to exist at all.
Clearly ther are other sorts of trails - from firefighting, cloud-seeding, insecticide or other agricultural spraying, etc - but none of those look like contrails like chemtrails supposedly do.
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction." -Pascal
"It is very important not to mistake hemlock for parsley; but not at all so to believe or not in God" - Diderot
Woody, HAARP can't modify the weather. Your article shows it has a 960 KW of power. That is 1200 horsepower. HAARP is in Alaska, how much can 1200 horsepower really do? You don't really believe you can change the weather with 1200 horsepower, do you?
"A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ...Mark Twain
If you are interested in CURRENT weather and climate modification, then I highly recommend you read "Fixing the Sky: The Checkered History of Weather and Climate Control" by James Rodger Fleming.
http://www.amazon.com/Fixing-Sky-Che.../dp/023114413X
It's got loads of stuff like this 1923 cartoon. 90 years ago!!!
Stupid (January 22nd, 2013)
Is there a better explanation?
"A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ...Mark Twain
Weather Modification is todays politically correct statement. Its not Global warming, its global climate change. So we understnad one another better I will define it as I see it and then you can define it differenty and perhaps the words you use differ than the ones I use. Happens often in disagreements.
Cloud seeding is limited to the seeding of clouds to produce rain and therfore can only be considered a portion of weather modification. Weather modification looks to move, shift, create or change weather sytems and includes but not limited to cloud seeding.
Not really, no.
Warmer air can hold more water. So if the temperature decreases, then the humidity increases, because the amount of water in the air remains the same, but it can now hold less.
Does that make sense to you? Can you see them why simply getting colder will INCREASE humidity.
Then it brings me back to, what is the SATALITE images displaying? LOL, not RadarI agree, Woody, the steam from the cooling towers is probably much too low to show up on radar, and the snow pack on the ground would be far lower....LOL
To be precise, the above is true with relative humidity (RH), not absolute humidity. I'm not yet sure that Woody understands the difference.
But while "weather modification" legitimately refers to cloud seeding, there is yet no evidence that people are moving, shifting, creating, or changing weather systems beyond what cloud seeding can accomplish (i.e., induction/enhancement of precipitation). And it still would not be geoengineering, which refers to proposed methods to influence the climate. Weather is not climate.
Which satellite images, the ones with clouds or the ones which are clear?
"A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ...Mark Twain
I see it this way, you do not have to agree, but there are both con-trails and chem-trails, I know you all don't agree, but that is ok with me, thats what makes us humans. From 1940 through the 1970's the planet cooled while CO2 rose. Pinitubo's eruption gave science the idea of duplicating this action after it eruption in 1991 due to the level of its cooling. Finding some way to smog the planet with a synthetic material to duplicate an eruption or smog with minimal effects upon the people. Get yourself some binoculars as i did and begin looking, on most here the tanks are externally mounted on renovated airliners. I believe my eyes and there were no clouds to seed...I know what I saw, and you can see them too in many parts of the country. I will do my best to attain a picture over the weeks ahead.
It's all about the evidence. Pictures of these "tanks" would be a start. You should be aware that there are hobbyists (planespotters, and the subset "contrail spotters") who get very nice, clear images with telephoto lenses of planes leaving contrails, and I've yet to see anything like what you're describing.
As Ross pointed out in a previous post, GOES visible images have a resolution no better than 1km, and there's a 4km version that's more suitable for larger continental or hemispheric views. So the limitations in resolution combined with a near ground level smallish cloud on snow covered ground results in a satellite image where the cloud just gets lost in the background. It's just as simple as that. Distinguishing regular old clouds over snow covered ground, or arctic ice for that matter, can be tricky sometimes anyway. You're trying to make something out of nothing due to a lack of understanding certain details is all. And I'll bet the same is happening with these alleged external tanks of yours.Then it brings me back to, what is the SATALITE images displaying? LOL, not Radar
Last edited by solrey; January 21st, 2013 at 07:14 PM.
In this image my home is in the + and the skies were clear from the Southern corner of Minnesota to me all the way west, yet these clouds appeared all day. I say its aluminum oxide nano particles at high altitudes, it would also explain the grey tint to the haze. The snow cover would not be picked up if the Nuclear Reactorss chillling towers weren't. So, unless there is a better explination, then my hypothosis to me stands but am willing to look at another alternativve, if there is one.
Then I will do what I can to get you one, time to bring out my mega lens. I own a security business and do a lot of CCTV work and have some lens's I may be able to reach up there with.
Here demostrates the sunny skies I saw
Here is the snow cover, if it is snow cover it would have been throughout and not isolated
I understand this, although being honest I need to further my education in the meanings of these, Dew Point, Humidity, relative humidity, etc. But in this cold here, like the Nuke Plant showed, there seems to be a limit on the height that clouds are able to form at here, as it always has been. So if the humidity rises, does the dew point drop with it in this cold? There is so little moisture in the air, everything is drying up, noses, skin, lips.
woody,
That Intellicast site is very buggy. It looks like the layer you have turned on is satellite and radar, right? I am looking at your area now and for some reason it is showing the correct time, but the date is showing as tomorrow, 1/22/13, while it is still 11:12 pm on 1/21/13. I think heir site is scewed up is all you are seeing. Try another site tomorrow when you see clear skies and Intellicast shows clouds. I'll bet the noaa satellite will show you just what you see.
This Intellicast Interactive weather site seems to be a new feature which may not be working the way it should be, as shown by the date you see in m screen capture. I am using a rather older XP windows machine and the site seems to load slowly, as well. What sort of computer are you using and the operating system?
Edit:
Now I see the problem. The site is showing me Coordinated Universal Time (formerly known as Greenwich Mean Time)
In UTC, my today is tomorrow in England!
By the way, Intellicast also says that the map doesn't work well with google chrome or Internet explorer 8, they recommend IE6 or 7, safari or firefox
Last edited by Jay Reynolds; January 21st, 2013 at 08:33 PM.
"A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ...Mark Twain
I wonder, are we in agreement yet that the planet is warming?
I posted an image but downloaded the time frame showing the clouds across this section of the state during the time I traveled. I just didn't want to take the time to make a video, upload to YouTube and post it. I also show the sunshine listings across the state along with the snow cover during this time in video time lapse as well. If it was snow cover, then it would all be showing this mass, which discounts this as an explination. For some reason it is displaying the right time but the wrong day. It may be the technology of the satellite that is picking this up.
I use infareds and other technologies in my business and this could explain it. I often tell my kids, don't believe your eyes, they will decieve you. I then pickup a remote control and ask them if they can see the light transmitting from it. They struggle and struggle but can see no light. I then pick up any video camera and show them the bright light it emits, but we can only see it through the camera because we can't see this spectrum of light. The camera does and then displays it for us, otherwise its invisible and works like magic. I think we are looking at a satallite able to pick up something our eyes may not be able to readily see. Visually from the ground, its a grey haze.
woody,
looks like it will cloud up some tomorrow, but if it's clear wednesday, check ou the NOAA satellite page for St. Cloud and see if the sat image matches what you see, then you'll know that Intellicast is sending you a bad feed.
here is the NOAA page:
http://forecast.weather.gov/MapClick...%20MN%2C%20USA
"A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ...Mark Twain
Thanks Jay, I will but the cold wiill leave after tonightand slowly return to normal. I still wonder if its the technology?
No, that interactive map is far from looking at a satellite photo. It is more lie a crude cartoon, an animation which is processed from some satellite data.
Check the noaa site sometime and you can find actual satellite imagery. If this interactive map is causing you confusion, just look at what the actual satellite shows, and compare the two.
Weathertap offers a 2 week free trial and gives you high resolution Minnesota images and loops like this:
"A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ...Mark Twain
Yep, there's the disconnect. I'm looking at the real deal NOAA GOES images thinking WTF is he talking about, but woody's issue revolves around those highly processed cartoonish Intellicast images.
And woody... a satellite image with 1km resolution means that any reflective area larger than 1 square km, like a whole state covered with snow, will show up on visible images. A ground hugging cloud of steam from cooling towers probably would cover too small an area to show up on 1km resolution images, let alone 4km resolution, with or without snow but no doubt when there's snow it would be completely washed out. What do you not understand about this? It's extraordinarily simple and at this point I just don't know what else to say other than "double face-palm".
I wonder if Woody may have picked up (and been stirred up by) a report of the phenomenon that Jay points to in his new topic:
http://metabunk.org/threads/1089-Sud...trails?p=24079
Cold and dry eh? I understand the feeling. It was two winters ago I couldn't stop getting bleeding noses everyday. But the air still holds moisture, just not as much as in warm air.
Anyways, dew point is simply the point at which air can no longer hold anymore water vapour. When temperatures cool to the dewpoint, water vapor condenses, and becomes visible (hence clouds, fog, etc). The fancy word for this is called "saturation."
High relative humidity is when dewpoint is close to the temperature, at which point, water can condense and become visible easily. It's about the spread.
Relative humidity is simply the amount of water vapour in the air as a percentage of how much water vapour the air can hold.
So, quite simply, if relative humidity rises as a percentage, it means the air is holding more and more water up to the limit at which it will condense.
Hope that makes sense. It's actually a fun tidbit to learn, because you can impress your friends by knowing exactly when frost will form on the windshield of your car when the temperature and dewpoint are close together and the temperature is below freezing.
Last edited by Rico; January 22nd, 2013 at 12:06 AM.
Where does the myth that if you don't believe in chemtrails then you don't believe in weather modification come from?
Another tidbit I have noted is that generally, during the night the expected dewpoint temp is close to the expected minimum temp for the night. This was handy when planning in spring for frost protection of newly planted seedlings.
The dew point is the temperature at which the relative humidity reaches 100% as the air cools. At this point, water
vapor in the air condenses into fog or dew, which gives off heat, slowing the temperature drop. The risk of having a
frost becomes greater as the dew point becomes lower. If the dew point is below freezing, so that condensation and
heat release does not take place until below freezing, temperatures can drop to damaging levels extremely rapidly.
In this case, the white crystals typically seen in a frost or freeze may not form, a condition sometimes referred to as
a "black frost".
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...ETHUJu6RsFi7Eg
"A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ...Mark Twain
I will explain and show with images captured today what a chem-trail looks like and how you can tell the differnce between these and con-trails. Con-trails follow behind jets, usually at high altitudes, but only when the atmosphere is appropriate. As the jets raise and lower in altitudes these con-trails will slowly dissapate or slowly appear as the ascend or descend. A Chem-trail, unlike a contrail will demonstrate a form if ignition or switch, like an afterburner would, and then shut down. This is not and can not be an atmospheric issue. I have many pictures of this happening but I will limit them. The first one here you can see when the switch was pushed. We need to remember, his engines got him to this point and show no signs of dispersment one would find in a normal contrail by atmosperic or altitude changes and what typically appears in the beginning is what I term a "Puff" of discharge. This is one of their signatures that are unlike con-trails. If this was pulled like a glider to this point and he started his engines here, we could possibly see something like this in a con-trail. Since multiple planes show this same discharge, I see it as being highly unlikely they are all gliders starting up.
.This was calculated to be 50 miles in length, a good run.
It took 4 good camera shots to get the entire trail in. The plane is traveling from SE to NW and traveling directly into the wind. We then traveled 30 miles east of our location and I took the following shot 40 minutes later.
We finally arrived at our destination and I continued to follow this same trail. This is 45 minutes later.
An Hour and 15 minutes.
We can now begin to see where it ended, as we have measured them, estimated 40 miles in length. If they start above your head they will go the horizon where you cannot see them any longer. Then another set 1 1/2 hrs after it appeared.
15 minutes later I took this final picture and after this I lost it in the haze off in a distance and it blended itself in with the rest as it moved SE past the twin cities to the Wisconsin Minnesota boarder.
Last edited by Woody; January 22nd, 2013 at 11:56 AM.
Hi Woody-
Can you explain why a cloud has gaps in it? or why there is a cloud in one spot but not another?
Can you explain how the trails in your photographs are any different than the the ones studied and photographed in these papers from 40yrs ago?
http://ciresweb.colorado.edu/science...llenberg72.pdf
"It is often observed that contrails spread considerably...Under favorable conditions, a lateral spread of kilometers is observed...If sufficient air traffic exists, an entire overcast of contrail cirrus may develop and persist for hours with rapid growth in the ice budget of individual contrails."
http://contrailscience.com/files/197...9-27-6-937.pdf
"The spreading of jet contrails into extensive cirrus sheets is a familiar sight."
Last edited by SR1419; January 22nd, 2013 at 03:54 PM.
All those pictures are fine. I don't discount any of them.
But you need to realize ....the way that that clouds form....they form in the atmosphere because of temp and humidity.
I'm sure this is not the first time you have heard this, but I wonder why you have not taken it to heart ??
Water released from engine combustion has no say into the area it is left (released)......so it is not a factor of whether or not engines produce water vapor, but where they do so, and in what conditions..
Last edited by Stupid; January 22nd, 2013 at 12:28 PM. Reason: q mark
"You've been Blaylocked !!"
Ross Marsden (January 22nd, 2013)
Woody, the atmosphere is not homogeneous smooth horizontal layers like one might see in simplified diagrams. For example, the first pic where the contrail starts basically outlines the boundary between a saturated layer/cell of air and a drier layer/cell. There's often some mixing of the two layers/cells along their interface which would produce smaller sections/puffs of contrail as the plane crosses the mixing zone into new stable parameters within the new layer/cell.
I think most of your issues are the result of not really understanding the atmosphere very well. You might want to have a look at this:
http://forecast.weather.gov/jetstream/index.htm
Example......natural clouds form to the south of you. No clouds form to your north.
That means there is an atmospheric difference....north-to-south.
Now.....put yourself in the middle of the equation....directly below the north-south barrier....
...all sorts of "stop/start" clouds will appear.
The sky way above you is not stable at all.....and is why you see scattered clouds.....and sputtered contrails.
"You've been Blaylocked !!"
Good explanation. However, "stable" is a problematic word to use in meteorology unless you are talking about one of the various kinds of stability and instability. In this situation, uniform or homogeneous would be safer.
HappyMonday (April 29th, 2013)
So, a plane flies across the sky then with a puff con-trails begin, like crossing an invisible line where one side can produce the crystals and the other side can't, esp when the temperature at ground level is -15. Wow, thats a new one and takes quite the imagination. And poof, they end, no declining in the plume, no degridation, just gone. And then the plume goes over the area you claim the crystals can't form, remember, the plane was flying into the wind. This explination I believe would be considered unadmissable in court.
Your abilities to debunk this is being quickly debunked by the laws of physics and the vast numbers, this is not once, this is continual and at various altitudes. Twice this past year we have seen malfunctions with these jets when they lay out a big black puff, and then the trail ends but the plane continues to go. In one case over Monticello there was a loud boom associated with this, locals thought the plane was going to crash by the sound. The contrail ended with a black puff and continued on its way.
By the way, the limits are 40 to 50 miles max, never more. Even if others are trailing throughout the sky, their lengths are limited. Con-trails have no limits if the atmosphere allows and the flight stays on a direct course and altitude. I think the issue should be, what is in it? During the cold war we use to watch the B-52s fly overhead all the time, my friends dad was an airline technician so we use to love to lay in the yard and watch them. The B-52's would often leave those trails as it went across the entire sky, but they NEVER stick around and created a haze more than an hour later. This was back in the days when sonic booms were still legal.
Woody, maybe this diagram would be helpful:
Don't clouds often end very abruptly with a very distinct edge- just gone?
That behavior- persisting for hours and creating a haze- is a long observed, well understood phenomenon of normal contrail- as has been pointed put several times. Did you read the quote and the paper I showed before? If not, here it is again. I encourage you to have a look.
http://ciresweb.colorado.edu/science...llenberg72.pdf
"It is often observed that contrails spread considerably...Under favorable conditions, a lateral spread of kilometers is observed...If sufficient air traffic exists, an entire overcast of contrail cirrus may develop and persist for hours with rapid growth in the ice budget of individual contrails."
How many times does it have to be said to you before you get it - it's the relative humidity, not the temperature. It can be -30 on the surface (so much, MUCH colder at higher altitudes) and there still be clouds - this is well documented in our part of the country and with our neighbors to the north (Rico and I have both noted this, and we are both north of you).
The atmosphere is nowhere as simply constructed as you seem to imply - the temperature and humidity change across a relatively small area of the atmosphere can change quite drastically depending on the synoptic situation.
The one character aspect I am most proud of is being able to recognize that something can be a total load of crap.
Mick, not in this case or countless number of cases. A limit on length, the puff and the abrupt end is not being explained here. You see, the cloud dispensed into the area ran from south to north into the wind, and this is important here. The cloud then drifted into the so called uninhabitable zone? Well, in this case this theory is debunked.. Remember, the plane is going into the wind, thus the cloud would disapate at this line and go no farther south, but it did. We have all agreed that they have done cloud seeding, which is what this could be, yet no one acknolwedges any footage or anything up there that demonstrates the difference between them and con-trails. I have and your responses so far have been inadequit.
Last edited by Woody; January 22nd, 2013 at 04:17 PM.
The cloud did not drift independently. It just moved with the air. So it was still in the same air.
The wind at 35,000 feet is not the same as the wind at ground level.
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