The difference between con-trail, chem-trail and high cirrus clouds.

[plane852]

I welcome a challenge, trust me, this is how I learn...but I find it ironic that no one is targeting the debunking of CO2 or even responding to it, because this is the beginning of understanding it all. We are warming, but how will the government combat it? Here I am giving you the insight, in fact, this idea of creating clouds was the only short term fix I could come up with, then we have to replant the planet and cut population growth immediately, otherwise its a mathamatical equasion to our self destruction. You see, the clock is ticking and no one gives a crap and its so damn frustrating when the only thing a man wants is for his grandkids to have a good life and other oppose this and fight it. I could care less about the weather, chem trails, con trails, all of it, all I care about is them kids and what it will take to make this a better place for them.

I'm sure a lot of us are concerned about how the future is going to be for our grand kids. The CO2 discussion is in another thread, however - this one is focusing on contrails and chemtrails.

[Woody]

As per my previous comment (where I linked to a cloud-seeding video) cloud seeding demonstrates none of the characteristics of what believers call 'chemtrails'.

'Chemtrails' are typically described as being long white trails, usually left by jet airlines, in typically clear skies that can persist and spread out into cirrus-like clouds. Which cannot be distinguished from contrails.
What is it, for you, that differentiates a 'chemtrail' from a contrail?

These Chem-trails can NOT take root in an atmosphere that is not ripe for its taking and what we have seen here is woorking along storm fronts and cloud formations as they pass through. They will be along the leading edge, middle and trailing edge of the cloud masses. This in turn has altered our rain fall and reduced the storm activities by spreading it out over a large area. We often see them attempting on a clear day but if the atmosphere oppposes it, it won't take.

[plane852]

These Chem-trails can NOT take root in an atmosphere that is not ripe for its taking and what we have seen here is woorking along storm fronts and cloud formations as they pass through.

So explain how the atmosphere over Minnesota on September 18th, 2012 is not ripe for contrails. I've already given you the upper air map and sounding for your area.

They will be along the leading edge, middle and trailing edge of the cloud masses. This in turn has altered our rain fall and reduced the storm activities by spreading it out over a large area.

I can double check, but there is no evidence of a prolonged reduction of rainfall or storm activity in Minnesota since the beginning of the millennium. I'd be happy to find the data for you, if you want.

We often see them attempting on a clear day but if the atmosphere oppposes it, it won't take.

So the atmosphere has ways of shutting the whole thing down if it gets a chemtrail it doesn't want?

[Woody]

I'm sure a lot of us are concerned about how the future is going to be for our grand kids. .

Thats the problem in this world, people don't care about each other anymore.

[Ross Marsden]

Woody, by "puffs" do you mean pendules like this: http://files.abovetopsecret.com/file...xa4e89ac7c.jpg

[Woody]

So explain how the atmosphere over Minnesota on September 18th, 2012 is not ripe for contrails. I've already given you the upper air map and sounding for your area.

I can double check, but there is no evidence of a prolonged reduction of rainfall or storm activity in Minnesota since the beginning of the millennium. I'd be happy to find the data for you, if you want.



So the atmosphere has ways of shutting the whole thing down if it gets a chemtrail it doesn't want?

No need, look to August 16th 2011 and August 17 2012, on both of these days our rainfall declined into the worst droughts on record. Last year it began to pick up in February. Which is another avenue to debunk, our drought is not caused form lack of rain, but from ground water evaporation due to the extreme heat. And your rainfall data is here, when it comes to weather history, I have a great deal of data available through years of research and statistical analysis on our weather, specifically Minnesota.
This data was to November 19th, 2012 so the final year will rise, minnesota to slightly above normal. So if rainfall was normal, whats with the drought and what is America going to do about it? Here is the link to all the data you will need for comparing this data. http://climate.umn.edu/doc/twin_cities/twin_cities.htm
University of Minnesota is where the International Airport records exist, have fun looking but look at 1910, a really bad year.

[plane852]

No need, look to August 16th 2011 and August 17 2012, on both of these days our rainfall declined into the worst droughts on record. Last year it began to pick up in February. Which is another avenue to debunk, our drought is not caused form lack of rain, but from ground water evaporation due to the extreme heat. And your rainfall data is here, when it comes to weather history, I have a great deal of data available through years of research and statistical analysis on our weather, specifically Minnesota.
This data was to November 19th, 2012 so the final year will rise, minnesota to slightly above normal. So if rainfall was normal, whats with the drought and what is America going to do about it? Here is the link to all the data you will need for comparing this data. http://climate.umn.edu/doc/twin_cities/twin_cities.htm
University of Minnesota is where the International Airport records exist, have fun looking but look at 1910, a really bad year.

Then how long has chemtrail activity been going on? One year is a really short blurb for data going back to 1900. You've essentially debunked yourself, as you said:

This in turn has altered our rain fall and reduced the storm activities by spreading it out over a large area.

The graph that you provided shows a near-steady average rainfall for the state, and nothing significantly altered.

[Woody]

Woody, by "puffs" do you mean pendules like this: http://files.abovetopsecret.com/file...xa4e89ac7c.jpg

Yes, but specifically, when they begin, there is no ascending or descending trail, more like a pump activating. If the jet had afterburners or something like this I could agree, but it appeared to be another plain DC9 airliner.

[Woody]

Then how long has chemtrail activity been going on? One year is a really short blurb for data going back to 1900. You've essentially debunked yourself, as you said:


The graph that you provided shows a near-steady average rainfall for the state, and nothing significantly altered.

Well, then you never looked, so let me share it wih you. You need to take time and effort to find these things. Beginning on August 17, 2011 we had .16",
Sept .36"
Oct .7"
Nov .3"
Dec .99"
Jan .36" and nothing thru february 20th totalling 2.87" for this 6 month duration.

Average rainfall from 1971 - 2000 in Minnesota is as follows

Sept 2.69"
Oct 2.11"
Nov 1.94"
Dec 1.00"
Jan 1.04" Total for these 5 months, 8.78"

Now, for 2012 beginning a day earlier on August 16th the rains deminished again.

AUG 16th to 31, .14"
Sept .3"
Oct 1.3"
Nov .63"
Dec 1.64"
Jan .34" Total so far, 4.35" Better than last year but still, way short. Anyone not from the north doesn't fully comprehend what and how this snow pack works and how important it is for our forests. This means this drought will carry on as ground water sources are way low and some of the rivers now can not be traveled up here any longer, they are too shallow.

Of the worst 10 drought in our history, only one occured during the fall and rebounded in the spring but even during the worst of seasons the rainfall averaged more than the 2011 - 2012 figure of less than .5" per month making this the worst 6 months ever recorded, even worse than the 6 month average for 1910. Now, do you see it?

[Woody]

I have to appologize, the threads are coming faster than I can reply, and I have to go, I will return later but my daughter is at the er and I must go help with the grandkids, the little ones that no one seems to care about any more. At least I do, and remember this, I am fighting for them and yours as too, both born and unborn.

[plane852]

Well, then you never looked, so let me share it wih you. You need to take time and effort to find these things. Beginning on August 17, 2011 we had .16",
Sept .36"
Oct .7"
Nov .3"
Dec .99"
Jan .36" and nothing thru february 20th totalling 2.87" for this 6 month duration.

Average rainfall from 1971 - 2000 in Minnesota is as follows

Sept 2.69"
Oct 2.11"
Nov 1.94"
Dec 1.00"
Jan 1.04" Total for these 5 months, 8.78"

Now, for 2012 beginning a day earlier on August 16th the rains deminished again.

AUG 16th to 31, .14"
Sept .3"
Oct 1.3"
Nov .63"
Dec 1.64"
Jan .34" Total so far, 4.35" Better than last year but still, way short. Anyone not from the north doesn't fully comprehend what and how this snow pack works and how important it is for our forests. This means this drought will carry on as ground water sources are way low and some of the rivers now can not be traveled up here any longer, they are too shallow.

Of the worst 10 drought in our history, only one occured during the fall and rebounded in the spring but even during the worst of seasons the rainfall averaged more than the 2011 - 2012 figure of less than .5" per month making this the worst 6 months ever recorded, even worse than the 6 month average for 1910. Now, do you see it?

The blue line across the entire graph disagrees with an altered trend in rainfall. Sure, there are wet and dry years, but when you look at the entire average rainfall, from 1900 to the present day, the overall amount of rainfall that has fallen across Minnesota has not changed, if not increased ever so slightly.

[Jay Reynolds]

Good night, Woody.
Oh, and goodbye.
I've had just about enough of you.

[Woody]

The blue line across the entire graph disagrees with an altered trend in rainfall. Sure, there are wet and dry years, but when you look at the entire average rainfall, from 1900 to the present day, the overall amount of rainfall that has fallen across Minnesota has not changed, if not increased ever so slightly.

Ok, lets start at the beginning of this topic of precipitation. I first brought up the past couple years and you brought up histoorical, which I then responded to. Careful observation would reveal itself to you if you look closer. Perhaps I just have a keener eye to these variables, so I will explain the historical alterations that have taken place. I have the running graph at home demonstrating this on a time line. During the years of vast pollution the rainfall declined. This is logical and understandable when we look to 2 variables. First, the smog was blocking the earths surface and a known resultt of this would be a decline in normal evaporation of ground water. Secondly, the additional pollutants in the atmosphere would allow the atmosphere to become more concentrated with water. Both of these variables will be seen in that graph. After the EPA was enacted, and within that decade, rainfall began to climb as the sky cleared. Now there was less particle in the air for the water to hag onto, and more evaporation of ground source water, meaning more rainfall over the years. TTHee difference is several inches. If you look closer, you can see what I mean.

[Woody]

Here you can see that there has been a deviation of 6 inches of annual rainfall throughout our history in the past centruy plus. This is a running average set to 5 years. I also found out the information you all were requesting. In order for clouds to develop two items are necessary, dust and water vapor. As water rises, the boiling point declines, yet the freezing point remains unaffected. As altitudes rises, temperatures also decline allowing the vapor to condense and then attach to a dust particle. When enough form, a cloud is created. When our temperatures are serverely low, as I said, -20, there is no evaporation taking place and water vapor crystalizes immedately and falls back to earth. This can be seen along the Mississippi River or a power plant as any water vapor condenses immediatly and falls back to earth. Other areas in the world, coastal regions or the Arctic for example act far differently due to their proximity to the oceans and water that store a great amount of energy for clouds and evaporation to occur. Inland, where there is no open water and so little energy available to create water vapor, any vapor that does occur condenses quickly and then falls back to earth.

[Rico]

Evaporation doesn't really come into play with regards to cloud development IMO. Well, condensation is in essence the opposite of evaporation. You go from a gas to a liquid (and if cold enough, it deposits into a solid), and thus becomes visible.

While you seem to be starting to grasp how clouds are created, there are still areas which you don't seem to understand. You seem to have the impression that at cold temperatures, -20 as you say, water vapor becomes crystallizes and falls--thus you can't have clouds. Am I reading you correctly? Well, cirrus clouds are essentially ice crystals, why do they stay up in the sky? The atmosphere isn't a vacuum. There is a lot going on. You can have rising and falling parcels of air, for instance (you do know that our troposphere is heated from the ground up right?). There is also wind, and wind can affect how contrails appear, or how clouds look to the naked eye. There are also areas of high pressure and low pressure, which affect how weather moves around and how cold and hot air can wedge weather in between it's boundaries.

Come up to Canada sometime and see some of our winter snowstorms. It gets far colder than -20, I assure you, and I can guarantee you that you will see lots and lots of clouds even as far inland as Saskatchewan.

And Woody, I know you are trying to press forth the idea the existence of chemtrails as something else other than a contrail. There has been a lot of points brought up, by you and by others over the years, and a lot of forum members here don't believe in chemtrails because the evidence is unconvincing. Here is some advice to you:

-If you can get those photos of aircraft showing those external tanks or what-not that you said you would do some pages back, do so. Then we can talk. Conspiracy sites have yet to bring forth anything that can't be explained, and so, if you can do this, you can have something to back your thesis with.
-Don't take other comments on this forum the wrong way. Most people here are skeptics. Some are more patient than others, and it's the way people are. If some are, you suspect, are government agents/shills, then you should be able to squash any argument if you can provide the right evidence
-I recommend you read a meteorology text from cover to cover. It will help explain a lot of things about how the atmosphere works and will help bridge some of the gaps in your arguments

[Woody]

Evaporation doesn't really come into play with regards to cloud development IMO. Well, condensation is in essence the opposite of evaporation. You go from a gas to a liquid (and if cold enough, it deposits into a solid), and thus becomes visible.

Without water and the process of evaporation, condensation and dust, all 3, clouds can NOT develop. Without dust and particles in the air the skies would be cloudless.

While you seem to be starting to grasp how clouds are created, there are still areas which you don't seem to understand. You seem to have the impression that at cold temperatures, -20 as you say, water vapor becomes crystallizes and falls--thus you can't have clouds. Am I reading you correctly?

No, I very clearly indicated my location that is 1000 miles away from any form of energy. Energy is required for evaporation to exist and with no open water within 1000 miles, there is literally no energy for any evaporation to occur. Additioally, if anyone understood this and lived here they would also understand that it ONLY gets this cold at night and warms up during the day. Only on a few occasions has this cold lasted throughout the day, which is also another reason why it is cloudless. You see, I started talking about this because it was going to be more than -20 one night and I made the comment that in the morning it should be clear. Please understand how the earth and the sun work together for heating, cooling, and precipitation. One catalyst for winds, storms and precipitation is the Sun, this is why the wind is always calmest before the sun rises and hurricanes and storms deiminish during the night and kick back up during the day, its all about energy. Science has over the years often discounted the sun as a catalyst for our weather, but in all reality, it supplies us with renewed energy every day and without it the world would be nothing more than a lifeless rock in space.

Well, cirrus clouds are essentially ice crystals, why do they stay up in the sky? The atmosphere isn't a vacuum. There is a lot going on. You can have rising and falling parcels of air, for instance (you do know that our troposphere is heated from the ground up right?).

Actually, ALL of our heat comes from the ground, because heat rises, more than just the troposphere, this is part of thermal dynamic principles. It can trap heat but physics does not allow it to be driven back down to the earth. Its like adding insulation to the roof of your home, the heat begins upstairs where you insulated (as long as it is sealed well) and slowly heats its way down to the lower levels. Anything driven down (like a fan driving the heat down towards the lower levels) will only result in a temporary condition that will result in its rising again.

There is also wind, and wind can affect how contrails appear, or how clouds look to the naked eye.

The wind is generated by the sun during the day by altering the surface temperature and causing disturbances that rise as the day continues. This accelerates evporation making far more clouds during the day than the night can produce.

There are also areas of high pressure and low pressure, which affect how weather moves around and how cold and hot air can wedge weather in between it's boundaries.

Yes

Come up to Canada sometime and see some of our winter snowstorms. It gets far colder than -20, I assure you, and I can guarantee you that you will see lots and lots of clouds even as far inland as Saskatchewan.

The Hudson Bay is a source of a great deal of energy for your area, but you will notice a decreased amount of cloud cover every mornings, its part of the physics involved. In fact, if you research this you will see how the Great Lakes drives its own weather systems. Due to the proximity of the Great Lakes to my location, 300 miles northeast, it has no impact on my region and other areas further than 100 miles west of Duluth. The next closest body of energy closest to us is the Hudson Bay that has no effect here due to its location easat of my area. The sun and the moon actually play a vital role in this. The gravitational pull of these two forces and provides us with altering tides and also drives weather deep inland. This is why all weather system inland are driven west to east. Although the winds and storms can sometimes come from the east, this is associated with large scale storms that wrap themselves back east as the mass moves west. This does NOT include coastal regions (Oceans store a great deal of energy and alter this greatly depending upon the region) nor their effects they have inland, but no weather system are built up in the Atlantic and come inland this far, and if they do as some huge hurricanes have shown entering into the Ohio River Valley, they are eventually driven east back out to sea by this gravitational pull.

And Woody, I know you are trying to press forth the idea the existence of chemtrails as something else other than a contrail. There has been a lot of points brought up, by you and by others over the years, and a lot of forum members here don't believe in chemtrails because the evidence is unconvincing. Here is some advice to you:

I see this as not understanding the definitions of the words we use. If we all could, for a moment, understand that cloud seeding is promoting a "Chem-Trail" then we could have an good discussion about it. Its in this misunderstanding of these words that has become a block to discussing it. This same form of misunderstanding the deinitions of the words another uses often times is the catalyst that promotes a lack of harmony and unity among people and can even in its worst case, cause wars over it. An easy way to understand what I mean is ask a Christain commmunity this question, is Jesus God? Because God is loosely defined with multiple meaning in English, you will get wide spread reslullts, and some people have gone to war over these issues of misunderstanding. You see, Eloheem is Hebrew for God, and so is YHWY (Yahway), but with 2 seperate meanings. Jesus is Eloheem (God) but Jesus is not YHWY (God), thus, battles and wars over definitions, much as has been displayed here, misunderstaning one another. In this situation, is Jesus God or not God, the truth is that English did not properly define the words. If you have two words in one language, that is later converted to another language, and one word is used to define 2 seperate words of another language, then confusion sets in. This is just one issue, but the level of compassion in this controversy I felt would be a good analogy for our discussion. I have learned that before engaging into a discussion make it clear how you define the words we use. I have made it clear since the beginning that this cloud seeding is a form of chem-trail by definition, and if others understood this they would not be objecting and displaying pics or videos of this. By doing so we would be able to identify the differences and how you can, as this thread indicates, see and define the differences between then.

No, we all believe in Chem-Trails because we all believe, and there has been plenty of knowledge of this for years. Cloud seeding is trailing a chemical behind a plane, thus the term 'Chem-Trail." Where we differ is most people here want to show, display or admit that Cloud Seeding is classified as a form of "Chem-Trails" or display any of these known process's that is public knowledge and have their own mental version of "Chem-Trail." in their mind they exclude this from being classified as a "Chem-Trail." its in our deviances of understanding this word, some do not see cloud seeding as chem-trails, but they are. A Chem-Trail is a trail of chemicals, something released from the air to create a trail that is does not naturally develop on its own. Silver Iodine and dry ice have been used for years and my claim is simple, this may be all it is that everyone is seeing.

-If you can get those photos of aircraft showing those external tanks or what-not that you said you would do some pages back, do so. Then we can talk. Conspiracy sites have yet to bring forth anything that can't be explained, and so, if you can do this, you can have something to back your thesis with.
-Don't take other comments on this forum the wrong way. Most people here are skeptics. Some are more patient than others, and it's the way people are. If some are, you suspect, are government agents/shills, then you should be able to squash any argument if you can provide the right evidence

Thanks,

-I recommend you read a meteorology text from cover to cover. It will help explain a lot of things about how the atmosphere works and will help bridge some of the gaps in your arguments

Its just frustrating when people do not understand that I define cloud seeding as a chem - trail for just reasons. "An unnatural trail of chemicals in the air dispersed by aircraft or rockets." If anyone wants to disagree, please respond to this quote first, and if the words you use differ than my own, PLEASE define your undersanding first so we can better communicate. In the mean time I will get this image you look for but it will take time to set up the equipment, locate the aircraft, and record it.

I want to thank you for your time and insight into this matter.

[cloudspotter]

Its just frustrating when people do not understand that I define cloud seeding as a chem - trail for just reasons. "An unnatural trail of chemicals in the air dispersed by aircraft or rockets." If anyone wants to disagree, please respond to this quote first, and if the words you use differ than my own, PLEASE define your undersanding first so we can better communicate. In the mean time I will get this image you look for but it will take time to set up the equipment, locate the aircraft, and record it.

I want to thank you for your time and insight into this matter.

Cloud seeding, as the name suggests, takes place in clouds. They're seeded with silver iodide (usually) in an attempt to force precipitation. You can't usually see it happening, it doesn't leave white trails across the sky and it isn't carried out using large airliners at 35000ft.

[Rico]

Woody, the only time evaporation comes into play in cloud development is when you are trying to add moisture into the air. You don't NEED evaporation to create a cloud, you just need water vapour, condensation, and a form of condensation nuclei such as salt, dust, or smoke. Yes, a lot of the moisture in the atmosphere comes through evaporation (it can even come from plants), and yes, I know how the great lakes can fuel it's own weather, but just because you don't have a large bodies of water nearby doesn't mean your area is devoid of water vapour. Air masses for example often bring variable amounts of moisture and temperatures to areas than span several thousand miles. You won't see much of zero humidity, and this should be clear if you read your own weather reports.

Clouds are formed in one of two ways: (1) Air with a consistent temperature absorbing additional water vapour so that it saturates; or (2) air in which water vapour exists is cooled to saturate. Really, if the air in your area carries just enough water vapour with an abundance of condensation nuclei, clouds can form with just the wind blowing up a hill, for air being forced up expands and cools and can very much condense water vapour into cloud. Even when your temperatures are -20 and below and away from large bodies of water, this can STILL happen. Frost forming in say, your car, on subzero days are the perfect example of water existing and changing state. Other factors such as convection of the ground, turbulence from the winds, convergence from low pressure systems, and fronts can also create clouds in the presence water. The only thing about colder temperatures is that it holds less water.

Finally, with regards to the use of the words chemtrails, as subjective as it may be, it's not exactly a term that exists in most English dictionaries that I've come across. In fact, your definition differs as much from what conspiracy theorists define the word as and to what I consider what the word means. Using your definition, just the basic exhaust gasses coming out of an aircraft are chemtrails; cropdusting would be considered chemtrail activity; smoke ejected out of aircraft during airshows would chemtrails; heck even airborne firefighting would be considered chemtrailing. But alas, I tend to regard the word chemtrail, and I am sure many people on this board do as well, to that of a conspiracy. And sorry for being somewhat judgmental, but I believe your context for the word also has to do with some conspiracy, no? But really, when I look at cloud seeding, it really isn't a conspiracy. They aren't doing it to control people, it's not top secret, and it's certainly not the white streaks you see in the air.

[Belfrey]

Its just frustrating when people do not understand that I define cloud seeding as a chem - trail for just reasons. "An unnatural trail of chemicals in the air dispersed by aircraft or rockets." If anyone wants to disagree, please respond to this quote first, and if the words you use differ than my own, PLEASE define your undersanding first so we can better communicate. In the mean time I will get this image you look for but it will take time to set up the equipment, locate the aircraft, and record it.

I want to thank you for your time and insight into this matter.

Woody, I think that part of the reason this thread has been moved into the "Rants and Rambles" section is that you don't seem to be making any effort to read, understand, and respond to the posts of others. It has been explained to you multiple times that cloud seeding is a red herring. It does not have anything to do with the persistent visible trails across the sky that some people are calling "chemtrails". It does not leave persistent trails, it doesn't create clouds where none exist, and it's not done across open skies or at high altitudes.

If you don't like cloud seeding, then you can start a thread about why you think cloud seeding is bad. But (as I pointed out before) there are no ongoing cloud seeding programs in Minnesota, anyway.

[Woody]

Woody, Finally, with regards to the use of the words chemtrails, as subjective as it may be, it's not exactly a term that exists in most English dictionaries that I've come across. In fact, your definition differs as much from what conspiracy theorists define the word as and to what I consider what the word means. Using your definition, just the basic exhaust gasses coming out of an aircraft are chemtrails; cropdusting would be considered chemtrail activity; smoke ejected out of aircraft during airshows would chemtrails; heck even airborne firefighting would be considered chemtrailing. But alas, I tend to regard the word chemtrail, and I am sure many people on this board do as well, to that of a conspiracy. And sorry for being somewhat judgmental, but I believe your context for the word also has to do with some conspiracy, no? But really, when I look at cloud seeding, it really isn't a conspiracy. They aren't doing it to control people, it's not top secret, and it's certainly not the white streaks you see in the air.

Thank you for finally clarifying this, I appreciate it. I am not associated with the conspiracy act of chemtrails the way you speak about it, they do tend to have a good imagination though. I am a factual person who looks to statistics, patterns and general observation, especially now as I have grandchildren. I look to making this planet better for them, the hell with me and my generation, we have screwed it up pretty bad and I am trying to bring to light the realities of our situation today. If this is the geeneral understanding in this room I will surely refrain from the use of "Chem-Trails" I believe we can better understand one another this way. I will use the word cloud seeding or con-trails from here on out then. Thanks again, wow, what a discussion one can have over a misunderstanding of the definitions of the words one uses in their life.

[Woody]

Let us see then if we can all mutually agree here.

1. Over the recent couple years con-trails have increased drastically causing a form of haze blocking out some of the suns radiance. It may be enhanced by the rise in CO2 or another effect, but there is a clear rise in both the amounts and size of these formations.

2. Global alterations regarding increased heat is rising, cause yet uncertain.

3. Many governments are investing large amounts of money to combat what is often refered to as "Global Warming" although the true definitions very.

If we can agree on these 3 points, I have some intersting thoughts to inject about these 3 topics, specifically regarding the obstructions in the sky and how are they investing this money and in what ways are they combating global climate alterations?

[Mick]

Let us see then if we can all mutually agree here.

1. Over the recent couple years con-trails have increased drastically causing a form of haze blocking out some of the suns radiance. It may be enhanced by the rise in CO2 or another effect, but there is a clear rise in both the amounts and size of these formations.

No.

2. Global alterations regarding increased heat is rising, cause yet uncertain.

What?

3. Many governments are investing large amounts of money to combat what is often refered to as "Global Warming" although the true definitions very.

What do you mean by "large sums of money"? And what are they spending it on precisely?

[justanairlinepilot]

I will explain and show with images captured today what a chem-trail looks like and how you can tell the differnce between these and con-trails. Con-trails follow behind jets, usually at high altitudes, but only when the atmosphere is appropriate. As the jets raise and lower in altitudes these con-trails will slowly dissapate or slowly appear as the ascend or descend. A Chem-trail, unlike a contrail will demonstrate a form if ignition or switch, like an afterburner would, and then shut down. This is not and can not be an atmospheric issue. I have many pictures of this happening but I will limit them. The first one here you can see when the switch was pushed. We need to remember, his engines got him to this point and show no signs of dispersment one would find in a normal contrail by atmosperic or altitude changes and what typically appears in the beginning is what I term a "Puff" of discharge. This is one of their signatures that are unlike con-trails. If this was pulled like a glider to this point and he started his engines here, we could possibly see something like this in a con-trail. Since multiple planes show this same discharge, I see it as being highly unlikely they are all gliders starting up.
.Attachment 1490 This was calculated to be 50 miles in length, a good run. Attachment 1491 It took 4 good camera shots to get the entire trail in. The plane is traveling from SE to NW and traveling directly into the wind. We then traveled 30 miles east of our location and I took the following shot 40 minutes later.
Attachment 1495 We finally arrived at our destination and I continued to follow this same trail. This is 45 minutes later.Attachment 1496 Attachment 1497 An Hour and 15 minutes. Attachment 1498Attachment 1499Attachment 1500We can now begin to see where it ended, as we have measured them, estimated 40 miles in length. If they start above your head they will go the horizon where you cannot see them any longer. Then another set 1 1/2 hrs after it appeared. Attachment 1501Attachment 1502 15 minutes later I took this final picture and after this I lost it in the haze off in a distance and it blended itself in with the rest as it moved SE past the twin cities to the Wisconsin Minnesota boarder.
Attachment 1505

I'm going to tell you that you are entirely wrong in your assumptions.

http://youtu.be/gORwQxiIrOg

The wrapper at the end was my First Officer finishing his meal, as we had little time to do that on the ground.

[Woody]

I'm going to tell you that you are entirely wrong in your assumptions.

http://youtu.be/gORwQxiIrOg

The wrapper at the end was my First Officer finishing his meal, as we had little time to do that on the ground.

We all have the right to our opinions. Interesting part is, Contrails exist, always have and just seeing a trail does not mean it is a chemtrail. Chemtrails exist, my goodness, look back to Korea and Vietnam. Weather modification is old going back many decades. We have been making clouds and rain for years. Ever see the video concrete rain? Yes, any form of fine dust in an area with high water vapor has been found to be able to create clouds, and Russia used concrete to lace the sky to make clouds, and it made for some serious hail. LOL So if you deny chemtrails, show me a video of one so you can demonstrate to me the differences because a realist doesn't deny them. There is enough military historical documents demonstrating their use of this activity in war. My research indicates its primarily magnesium, probably magnesium sulfate, natural from the oceans, used in inhalers, just creates a high ph content and calcium can be increased to balance the ph levels. The secrecy is simple, we live in a law suit happy world today. The president says he is making this his highest priority, Kerry says we are making great strides. Yet they are doing nothing and Minnesota is frickin cold and these clouds fill every hole in the sky when the clouds clear. Now the heat returns this weekend with lows higher than our highs today yet we have been under clouds the entire month. So what is it that our government is doing that is making this happen that both Obama and Kerry claim? Obama said this was his highest priority, so I think this is the most important question, what are they doing? According to heat based upon the second law of thermodynamics, increasing resistance to heat applied will reduce the temperature, and clouding the skies will cool the planet (turning the flame down). Another way is to increase the coolant through the surface, like increasing the radiator size in your car, same principle of removing heat, but we adding wells extracting coolant, not adding it. These are the ONLY two ways of altering temperatures according to thermodynamics, block it or move it. If you live in a house that lacks insulation your furnace may not be able to keep up and will run all day in an attempt to keep it warm in the extreme cold. If you increase resistance, insulation, you will be able to maintain a controlled environment more suitable for your comfort. The basic physics of heat that apply to your home apply to the world.
The unusual part of our cooling is not the cold, its the level of cold we are experiencing during the peak of the solar maximum and both the speed and amount of heat coming in two days.

[scombrid]

We all have the right to our opinions.

Not so with facts.

Chemtrails exist, my goodness, look back to Korea and Vietnam. Weather modification is old going back many decades.

Cloud seeding operations during wars (operations with questionable results) do not support the assertion that high ice clouds from air craft are weather modification.

We have been making clouds and rain for years.

Not really. Proponents claim that cloud seeding is effective, usually when they are trying to bilk money out of ski resorts and water managers. Even if cloud seeding does locally enhance rainfall, it doesn't create clouds. It attempts to work by seeding water clouds with condensation nuclei to enhance rainfall/snowfall rates.

Russia used concrete to lace the sky to make clouds, and it made for some serious hail. LOL

LoL indeed.

There is enough military historical documents demonstrating their use of this activity in war. My research indicates its primarily magnesium, probably magnesium sulfate, natural from the oceans, used in inhalers, just creates a high ph content and calcium can be increased to balance the ph levels. The secrecy is simple, we live in a law suit happy world today. The president says he is making this his highest priority, Kerry says we are making great strides. Yet they are doing nothing and Minnesota is frickin cold and these clouds fill every hole in the sky when the clouds clear. Now the heat returns this weekend with lows higher than our highs today yet we have been under clouds the entire month. So what is it that our government is doing that is making this happen that both Obama and Kerry claim? Obama said this was his highest priority, so I think this is the most important question, what are they doing? According to heat based upon the second law of thermodynamics, increasing resistance to heat applied will reduce the temperature, and clouding the skies will cool the planet (turning the flame down). Another way is to increase the coolant through the surface, like increasing the radiator size in your car, same principle of removing heat, but we adding wells extracting coolant, not adding it. These are the ONLY two ways of altering temperatures according to thermodynamics, block it or move it. If you live in a house that lacks insulation your furnace may not be able to keep up and will run all day in an attempt to keep it warm in the extreme cold. If you increase resistance, insulation, you will be able to maintain a controlled environment more suitable for your comfort. The basic physics of heat that apply to your home apply to the world.
The unusual part of our cooling is not the cold, its the level of cold we are experiencing during the peak of the solar maximum and both the speed and amount of heat coming in two days.

What?

[justanairlinepilot]

There is enough military historical documents demonstrating their use of this activity in war.

So you trust the government?

The president says he is making this his highest priority, Kerry says we are making great strides. Yet they are doing nothing and Minnesota is frickin cold and these clouds fill every hole in the sky when the clouds clear. Now the heat returns this weekend with lows higher than our highs today yet we have been under clouds the entire month. So what is it that our government is doing that is making this happen that both Obama and Kerry claim? Obama said this was his highest priority, so I think this is the most important question, what are they doing?

You don't trust the government?

http://youtu.be/gORwQxiIrOg

What type of trail do you suppose I flew thru? It seems persistent to me!! According to the chemtrail activists this would be a chemtrail. However, reality says it's a contrail. Actually, I knew the crew flying the aircraft making this trail. It was a Bombardier CRJ200 which departed from MSP. The chemtrail activists looking at this from the ground would say, whoa, they are crossing trails again, as NO DOUBT!, my aircraft was making a contrail too.

[Woody]

So you trust the government?



You don't trust the government? Where are the WMD's in Iraq?







What type of trail do you suppose I flew thru? It seems persistent to me!! According to the chemtrail activists this would be a chemtrail. However, reality says it's a contrail. Actually, I knew the crew flying the aircraft making this trail. It was a Bombardier CRJ200 which departed from MSP. The chemtrail activists looking at this from the ground would say, whoa, they are crossing trails again, as NO DOUBT!, my aircraft was making a contrail too.

Im not one of your typical conspiracy theorists regarding chemtrails. Contrails differ from chemtrails by leaving behind a haze that can be tracked hundreds of miles, I drive for a living and watch them from down here. As a kid, then later in the military, they had always dispersed over time, and sometimes they would exists for an extended period of time and be very long when the environment was ripe. Just because my car smokes doesn't mean I am carrying mosquito fogger, could mean its cold, running too rich, or perhaps a bad head gasket, but I do know the differences of them all as well. I am a realist that understands we are having troubles with a stable climate that is threatening world food resources that could collapse capitalism. Food rationing would wipe it out closing all the fast food markets across the nation, or food rationing for Big Macs and Whoppers. Argentina 2012/13 at 27% decline, Australia nearly wiped out with heat, and our silos across the nation were nearly dry at harvest last year, est 85% decline. Sub-soils are extremely dry, ask the farmers. Now, understanding the we have 42 lbs of corn, 10 lbs of soybean and 12 lbs of wheat per man woman and child left in storage, its imperative we produce this year regardless of what anyone thinks about anything. Understanding this problem, our governments claims, the question remains, what are they doing? It seems simple to me, place a haze over the planet reducing the solar radiance that reaches the soil, a form of sun block, cool the surface and increase crop yields. People think we can continue as a society at our current rate of consumption, we are adding 237,000 people to the planet today, 237,000 tomorrow meaning we have to clear 273,000 acres today and 273,000 tomorrow to feed them. Its just a mathematical equation, but it has meaning, impact, and consequences regardless of what anyone thinks.

[justanairlinepilot]

Im not one of your typical conspiracy theorists regarding chemtrails. Contrails differ from chemtrails by leaving behind a haze that can be tracked hundreds of miles, I drive for a living and watch them from down here. As a kid, then later in the military, they had always dispersed over time, and sometimes they would exists for an extended period of time and be very long when the environment was ripe. Just because my car smokes doesn't mean I am carrying mosquito fogger, could mean its cold, running too rich, or perhaps a bad head gasket, but I do know the differences of them all as well. I am a realist that understands we are having troubles with a stable climate that is threatening world food resources that could collapse capitalism. Food rationing would wipe it out closing all the fast food markets across the nation, or food rationing for Big Macs and Whoppers. Argentina 2012/13 at 27% decline, Australia nearly wiped out with heat, and our silos across the nation were nearly dry at harvest last year, est 85% decline. Sub-soils are extremely dry, ask the farmers. Now, understanding the we have 42 lbs of corn, 10 lbs of soybean and 12 lbs of wheat per man woman and child left in storage, its imperative we produce this year regardless of what anyone thinks about anything. Understanding this problem, our governments claims, the question remains, what are they doing? It seems simple to me, place a haze over the planet reducing the solar radiance that reaches the soil, a form of sun block, cool the surface and increase crop yields. People think we can continue as a society at our current rate of consumption, we are adding 237,000 people to the planet today, 237,000 tomorrow meaning we have to clear 273,000 acres today and 273,000 tomorrow to feed them. Its just a mathematical equation, but it has meaning, impact, and consequences regardless of what anyone thinks.

Maybe you could answer the question? Instead of asking another question. You came here [talking] about chemtrails. I'm saying they don't exist and you are [...] worrying about something that doesn't exist.

[Woody]

Maybe you could answer the question? Instead of asking another question. You came here [talking] about chemtrails. I'm saying they don't exist and you are [...] worrying about something that doesn't exist.

I did answer the question with backing and justification, as per guidelines of this forum, evidence to support in the court of law. When will you answer mine, if its not this what are they doing? Nothing?

[justanairlinepilot]

What type of trail do you suppose I flew thru? It seems persistent to me!! According to the chemtrail activists this would be a chemtrail. However, reality says it's a contrail. Actually, I knew the crew flying the aircraft making this trail. It was a Bombardier CRJ200 which departed from MSP. The chemtrail activists looking at this from the ground would say, whoa, they are crossing trails again, as NO DOUBT!, my aircraft was making a contrail too.

Woody, I asked you what do you think I flew through in my video. Where did you answer that?

To entertain you, I think Iraq was invaded for many reasons and I'm not going to say they were all correct reasons, however, I don't think they were invaded as some sort of conspiracy leading me to not trust our country's leadership.

Frankly, I don't give a crap about the debate of Iraq, the war is over, and I can't wait until we pull out of Afghanistan . I hope we never go back...move on.

I would like to suggest that you watch "The Fog of War" hosted by Robert McNamara. You'll learn that our country's leadership may make mistakes and makes decisions without knowing the outcome before those decisions are made. All eyes are on you when you are at the top, it's so easy to criticise and mistrust someone when they are at the top.

[Woody]

Con Trails clearly visible on the right, my question is what is the trail to the left? Micks description of wind sheer makes it clear as to how wind sheer works, yet the skies are filled sometimes with both with no reasonable explanation. These two planes traveled parallel in opposing directions across the entire sky.

[TWCobra]

Two aircraft, two different altitudes, two different sets of conditions...two different contrails. I took some photos of a 737 that created a 50 mile long contrail yesterday. It was 3000 feet below us and we weren't contrailing. Pictures to come when I get home from this trip.

[Woody]

Woody, I asked you what do you think I flew through in my video. Where did you answer that?

To entertain you, I think Iraq was invaded for many reasons and I'm not going to say they were all correct reasons, however, I don't think they were invaded as some sort of conspiracy leading me to not trust our country's leadership.

Frankly, I don't give a crap about the debate of Iraq, the war is over, and I can't wait until we pull out of Afghanistan . I hope we never go back...move on.

I would like to suggest that you watch "The Fog of War" hosted by Robert McNamara. You'll learn that our country's leadership may make mistakes and makes decisions without knowing the outcome before those decisions are made. All eyes are on you when you are at the top, it's so easy to criticise and mistrust someone when they are at the top.

Seriously, you can't tell. The plane is too far away and you didn't grab a video of your exhaust, If your plane was exhausting the same elements then it would be a contrail. If yours had no contrail, then its not a typical contrail and could even be engine malfunctions that can cause this effect.

[Woody]

Two aircraft, two different altitudes, two different sets of conditions...two different contrails. I took some photos of a 737 that created a 50 mile long contrail yesterday. It was 3000 feet below us and we weren't contrailing. Pictures to come when I get home from this trip.

Hmm, 2 different contrails. Last I read up on this subject you are either in the zone or not, now there is multiple zones? Explain this, I do not understand because I have read they freeze, or they don't, and what we see is the crystals.

[TWCobra]

What happens is that the water vapour being expelled either condenses due to high RH or it doesn't. RH is not homogenous. Those aircraft would have been separated by at least 1000 feet vertically, which is enough. You said they were travelling in opposite directions? If so one is older and thus expanded while the other isn't.

[Jazzy]

Yep, no clouds are EVER apparent in the extreme cold here as this video displays what happens to water vapor, and remember, its warmest at ground level, temperatures decline from this point up.

There is no such thing as dry air beneath 80,000 feet altitude, Woody. You may think there is no water vapor in your very cold air, but that is because you haven't measured its humidity. The Atacama desert is the driest place on Earth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atacama

Content from external source:

At night the temperature fluctuates to as low as −25°C in the zone of Ollagüe, while during the day the temperature can be between 25–30°C in the shade. The difference between the summer and the winter is minimal, because it is situated at the border of the tropic of Capricorn. In summer, the morning ambient temperature is 4–10°C and the maximum it reaches is 45°C which is full solar radiation. The solar radiation is very high in the ultraviolet spectrum, making the use of glasses and UV sunscreens indispensable.
Desierto florido
The relative humidity in the air is about 18% in the interior, but very high near the coast, reaching up to 98% during the winter months. The atmospheric pressure is 1017 millibars. There are season of tornado like winds or blizzards whose velocity can easily reach 100 km/h generally registered at midday. The topography of the zone slopes downwards gradually towards the sea, but its average relative height is 400–1500 meters above sea level.

It is not possible to reliably estimate the relative heights of aircraft, most of which have the same shape, but different sizes. If two planes fly near each other looking to be of the same size, it cannot be said that they are at the same altitude. A difference in altitude in order of tens of feet can still mean the planes are flying in differently-humidified layers.

This makes all of your conclusions suspect.

[scombrid]

Con Trails clearly visible on the right, my question is what is the trail to the left? Micks description of wind sheer makes it clear as to how wind sheer works, yet the skies are filled sometimes with both with no reasonable explanation. These two planes traveled parallel in opposing directions across the entire sky.

The reasonable explanation is embedded in your post that asserts that there is not one. Traveling in opposite directions along the same route the planes are required to keep a certain amount of vertical separation. They are in different air parcels. There may even be more than the required minimum separation if the planes are flying along and not across a jet stream. The plane flying upstream may well be very high relative to the plane flying downwind.

[Woody]

I travel to the Twin Cities nearly everyday and is about 100 miles from my home. Monticello is the 1/2 way point where my friend lives. We have worked together determining visual distance and we have found that we can see these planes for 50 miles on a clear day. 50 x 50 x 3.14 = 7,850 miles of sky we can see. From Minneapolis to St.Cloud are two separate viewing platforms allowing us to view 15,700 miles of sky every work day. Started keeping a log book with startling results that cannot be explained by atmosphere. First, the trails begin over Minneapolis no earlier than 7:30 am although flights begin early in and out of mpls intl. Second anomaly we have found is they rotate, they are in the sky daily but in different locations within these areas daily. During the pollution era there was a thick black smoke that engulfed cities, black carbon. Today there is a grey haze that has mysteriously emerged that engulfs the landscape and people are complaining about it in Northern Minnesota and the EPA got down on the Taconite plants to reduce there emissions blaming them for this, until we turned our information over to the press and Taconite industries in Northern Minnesota because all enhancements were in place, the EPA has backed down. When I look at the temperatures and their purpose I say, "Damn it's working" and it complies with physics, so whats the big deal? When I look at it from a Contrail perspective, the evidence just doesn't add up because the earth doesn't wake up at 7:30, and remember its not the time in the morning, we just went past daylight saving time and the sun is coming up earlier and yet the schedule remains the same, 7:30.

[solrey]

I travel to the Twin Cities nearly everyday and is about 100 miles from my home. Monticello is the 1/2 way point where my friend lives. We have worked together determining visual distance and we have found that we can see these planes for 50 miles on a clear day. 50 x 50 x 3.14 = 7,850 miles of sky we can see. From Minneapolis to St.Cloud are two separate viewing platforms allowing us to view 15,700 miles of sky every work day. Started keeping a log book with startling results that cannot be explained by atmosphere. First, the trails begin over Minneapolis no earlier than 7:30 am although flights begin early in and out of mpls intl. Second anomaly we have found is they rotate, they are in the sky daily but in different locations within these areas daily. During the pollution era there was a thick black smoke that engulfed cities, black carbon. Today there is a grey haze that has mysteriously emerged that engulfs the landscape and people are complaining about it in Northern Minnesota and the EPA got down on the Taconite plants to reduce there emissions blaming them for this, until we turned our information over to the press and Taconite industries in Northern Minnesota because all enhancements were in place, the EPA has backed down. When I look at the temperatures and their purpose I say, "Damn it's working" and it complies with physics, so whats the big deal? When I look at it from a Contrail perspective, the evidence just doesn't add up because the earth doesn't wake up at 7:30, and remember its not the time in the morning, we just went past daylight saving time and the sun is coming up earlier and yet the schedule remains the same, 7:30.

The timing of contrails appearing over Minneapolis at the same time every morning is totally consistent with normal commercial air traffic. Contrails above the vicinity of an airport are overflights that originated at some other distant airport, not from planes flying into or out of the local airport. If overflying routes are using the local airports navigational beacon then the airspace above that airport will be the foci for contrails from all directions. If you start seeing contrails at 7:30 each morning, regardless of DST or not, that means the first overflights start happening at that time by planes that depart at some earlier time every day on the same route from a distant origin airport. Ya know, something like flight schedules.

[Woody]

The timing of contrails appearing over Minneapolis at the same time every morning is totally consistent with normal commercial air traffic. No, as I said it is Minneapolis International, 13th busiest airport in the world with flights beginning by 5 am, trust me, between 5am and 7 am most departures take place, check it out. Secondly, as I said, daylight savings time and an earlier sunrise is not altering the time, your point would ONLY be valid if the times were altering with the sunrise and not mans clock but natures.
Contrails above the vicinity of an airport are overflights that originated at some other distant airport, not from planes flying into or out of the local airport. If overflying routes are using the local airports navigational beacon then the airspace above that airport will be the foci for contrails from all directions. If you start seeing contrails at 7:30 each morning, regardless of DST or not, that means the first overflights start happening at that time from planes that depart at the same time every day on the same route from a distant origin airport. Ya know, something like flight schedules.

Ever check the flights schedules out of Mpls Intl? if you did you would understand that your explanation only tells me what the cost of tea in China is.