Debunked: No Freedom Without Second Amendment

[Mick]

So because their was a study it makes it fact ? Everywhere ? Maybe in the academic world but not in the real world . You have your beliefs or studies Ill keep mine and my second admendment .

Studies study the real world. They tend to be more accurate on average than individual experience.

If you ask one person if owning a gun has saved their life, then you only get their own random experience. If you ask 1000 people, then you get a picture that is closer to reality.

Can you explain how you use your gun? Do you keep it loaded, on your bedside table at night? Do you carry it to the mall? Would you carry it if you were dropping a child off at school? Or are you just keeping it locked in the safe in case of a UN raid?

[Joe]

Like the study says, sometimes guns do work for self defense. But on average they do not, and on average people who carry guns get shot more than people who do not.

So really what you've got is a gun that makes you feel safer. But really it's not helping anything.

Mick . Whats your opinion of the Second admendment ? Coming from a industry that promotes Gun Violence ?

[Joe]

Studies study the real world. They tend to be more accurate on average than individual experience.

If you ask one person if owning a gun has saved their life, then you only get their own random experience. If you ask 1000 people, then you get a picture that is closer to reality.

Can you explain how you use your gun? Do you keep it loaded, on your bedside table at night? Do you carry it to the mall? Would you carry it if you were dropping a child off at school? Or are you just keeping it locked in the safe in case of a UN raid?

which one ? They are keep secure my 9mm I bring to work with me and when I travel . I have a carry permit . The M4 is locked unless I take it to the range . Thats is for SHTF conditions or natrual disasters in case of looting and caos .

[Mick]

Mick . Whats your opinion of the Second admendment ? Coming from a industry that promotes Gun Violence ?

The games industry does not promote gun violence. They sell the exact same games in the UK and Canada. There's zero evidence causally linking violence in video games to gun violence.

I don't have an opinion on the 2nd. I don't think the world would be very different if it did not exist. Only the US has it, other countries do just fine.

I think the NRA promotes fear, in a similar way to Alex Jones. The NRA gives the impression that it's a good idea to carry your gun around all the time, because (they say) at any moment someone is going to try to rob you. This mindset makes you live in fear. Then when you spend hundreds of dollars on guns, and invest lots of time and effort maintaining them and carrying them around, you've got a lot invested in those guns, so it's difficult to admit that there's no real need for them. It becomes almost like a religious belief. People carry a gun partly because they have been told there's no need to, and they are just angrily reacting.

[Joe]

The gaming industry glorifies guns and violence . Adam Lanza played call of duty for hours a day in his basement . Not sure he was a NRA member ? Im not sure your local gang bangers thugs are Members of the NRA but bet they love their Xbox games ? http://www.businessinsider.com/adam-...f-duty-2012-12

[Joe]

The games industry does not promote gun violence. They sell the exact same games in the UK and Canada. There's zero evidence causally linking violence in video games to gun violence.

I don't have an opinion on the 2nd. I don't think the world would be very different if it did not exist. Only the US has it, other countries do just fine.

I think the NRA promotes fear, in a similar way to Alex Jones. The NRA gives the impression that it's a good idea to carry your gun around all the time, because (they say) at any moment someone is going to try to rob you. This mindset makes you live in fear. Then when you spend hundreds of dollars on guns, and invest lots of time and effort maintaining them and carrying them around, you've got a lot invested in those guns, so it's difficult to admit that there's no real need for them. It becomes almost like a religious belief. People carry a gun partly because they have been told there's no need to, and they are just angrily reacting.

I think the NRA promotes fear, in a similar way to Alex Jones is a outright lie . No some collect guns as a hobby . or investment .Its pretty sad as a new citizen youd say that you have no opinion on the second admendment when it seems you do have one .

[Joe]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelv...ler-statement/

[Mattnik]

The gaming industry glorifies guns and violence . Adam Lanza played call of duty for hours a day in his basement . Not sure he was a NRA member ? Im not sure your local gang bangers thugs are Members of the NRA but bet they love their Xbox games ? http://www.businessinsider.com/adam-...f-duty-2012-12

I've played video games for 25 years - including CoD, BF3, GTA, Op. Flashpoint in more recent years going back to the mid-late 80s and playing the hits of the day on my Master System. I love my PC and PS3 games. Am I going to commit murder?

What about the NRA's involvement in video games?

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/01...ease_game_app/

What about the link between arms manufacturers and games designers?

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/20...-manufacturers

[Joe]

I've played video games for 25 years - including CoD, BF3, GTA, Op. Flashpoint in more recent years going back to the mid-late 80s and playing the hits of the day on my Master System. I love my PC and PS3 games. Am I going to commit murder?

What about the NRA's involvement in video games?

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/01...ease_game_app/

What about the link between arms manufacturers and games designers?

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/20...-manufacturers

I too play all those games . No you might not be affected but a young developing mind may be . Was Lanza a NRA member ? To slam the NRA and not the gaming industry is hypocritical and dishonest .

[Mick]

I too play all those games . No you might not be affected but a young developing mind may be . Was Lanza a NRA member ? To slam the NRA and not the gaming industry is hypocritical and dishonest .

Since there's no evidence of any causal link, then why should I slam the gaming industry?

Games have ratings, like films. If you want to blame someone, blame Adam Lanza and blame his mother.

[Joe]

Since there's no evidence of any causal link, then why should I slam the gaming industry?

Games have ratings, like films. If you want to blame someone, blame Adam Lanza and blame his mother.

Im just saying dont blame the NRA that is a MSNBC talking point . The NRA protects the second admendment . The fact that it is the 2nd after the 1st which I belive is another thing they dont have in the UK shows its importance . I dont let my grandson play those games and most parents limit the time their kids who are older play them . Maybe when the CDC does its study Obama wants youll agree since it will be from the Governmemnt ? http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/plugged-...181251688.html . Why did you move to the United States ? Must just be the weather ?

[Joe]

He even shoots like a girl

[Joe]

Colorado shooting: Suspect enjoyed video games, movies, school friend says http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lano...iend-says.html
Loughner and Video Games http://www.slate.com/blogs/weigel/20...deo_games.html

[Mick]

Im just saying dont blame the NRA that is a MSNBC talking point . The NRA protects the second admendment . The fact that it is the 2nd after the 1st which I belive is another thing they dont have in the UK shows its importance . I dont let my grandson play those games and most parents limit the time their kids who are older play them . Maybe when the CDC does its study Obama wants youll agree since it will be from the Governmemnt ? http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/plugged-...181251688.html . Why did you move to the United States ? Must just be the weather ?

I moved here because they pay more, and because I wanted an adventure. I stay here because I got married, and I like the weather.

I'm not blaming the NRA directly. But they lobby for easy access to guns, so inevitably that means more mentally ill people will get guns, so indirectly they influence the amount of mentally ill people killing people.

My comments about the NRA was earlier were more along the lines of them making people live in fear, and not feeling safe without a gun - when really they are often LESS safe with a gun.

[MikeC]

TCSW - there is convincing me - but to do so you actually have to give some good arguments.

So far you haven't bothered even trying to tell me how I am not free for not having a 2nd amendment - if you cannot provide any argument in favour of your position at all then why do you hold it in the first place??

[solrey]

My comments about the NRA was earlier were more along the lines of them making people live in fear, and not feeling safe without a gun - when really they are often LESS safe with a gun.

That's exactly right.

Injuries and deaths due to firearms in the home.

RESULTS: During the study interval (12 months in Memphis, 18 months in Seattle, and Galveston) 626 shootings occurred in or around a residence. This total included 54 unintentional shootings, 118 attempted or completed suicides, and 438 assaults/homicides. Thirteen shootings were legally justifiable or an act of self-defense, including three that involved law enforcement officers acting in the line of duty. For every time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were four unintentional shootings, seven criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides.

CONCLUSIONS: Guns kept in homes are more likely to be involved in a fatal or nonfatal accidental shooting, criminal assault, or suicide attempt than to be used to injure or kill in self-defense.

Community firearms, community fear.

Our findings suggest that most Americans are not impervious to the psychological effects of guns in their community, and that, by a margin or more than 3 to 1, more guns make others in the community feel less safe rather than more safe.

The Case for Gun Policy Reforms in America

The burden of gun violence on American society is substantial, whether measured in years of productive life lost, disability, fear, or economic costs. The toll is unprecedented among high-income nations. Weaknesses in current gun laws contribute to this burden by establishing low standards for legal gun ownership and significant loopholes in policies designed to keep guns from prohibited persons. When states expand firearm prohibitions to high-risk groups, and adopt comprehensive measures to prevent diversion of guns to prohibited persons, fewer guns are diverted to criminals, and there is less violence.

Some mistakenly believe that the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution would prohibit the kinds of legal reforms we believe are warranted. In 2008, in District of Columbia v. Heller,85 the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that the Second Amendment protected an individual right to own guns, striking down Washington, D.C.’s law banning handgun possession in the home. However, the Heller decision also mentioned numerous types of presumptively valid gun laws, including laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms. Since Heller, lower courts have overwhelmingly upheld the constitutionality of a wide range of gun laws other than handgun bans.

[Joe]

I moved here because they pay more, and because I wanted an adventure. I stay here because I got married, and I like the weather.

I'm not blaming the NRA directly. But they lobby for easy access to guns, so inevitably that means more mentally ill people will get guns, so indirectly they influence the amount of mentally ill people killing people.

My comments about the NRA was earlier were more along the lines of them making people live in fear, and not feeling safe without a gun - when really they are often LESS safe with a gun.

I really dont belive tha to be true . Statistics show that gun free zones and cities like Chicago there are more violent crimes and murders . Ill take real statisitics over any egg head study . Im sure it more the weather more then anything else . The weather in the UK sucks from what im told . The only fear iv seen from the NRA is the fear of the loss of the second admendment and Obama . Fast & Furious ect . Iv actually always felt safe without a firearm at home . Things changed at work when Crack dealers were living across the street from my work , and thanks to all the do gooders we have a small influx of more transeits . signs of the times

[Joe]

TCSW - there is convincing me - but to do so you actually have to give some good arguments.

So far you haven't bothered even trying to tell me how I am not free for not having a 2nd amendment - if you cannot provide any argument in favour of your position at all then why do you hold it in the first place??

if you live in a country that denies your right to defend your self by whatever means you are free to be a victim of a crime and the statistics show even in your tiny little country there is a pretty high chance you will be a victim . just hope its not rape !

[Joe]

That's exactly right.

Injuries and deaths due to firearms in the home.



Community firearms, community fear.



The Case for Gun Policy Reforms in America

memphis really ?????

• Black/African American population: 61.1%
• White/Caucasian population: 33.6%
• Hispanic/Latino: 3.0%

[Joe]

Seattle Op-ed: Our gun-control laws are not stopping gun violence http://seattletimes.com/html/opinion...anopedxml.html Just another JUNK STUDY . and suicides dont count .

[plane852]

He even shoots like a girl

How is this even relevant to the discussion?

[Joe]

That's exactly right.

Injuries and deaths due to firearms in the home.



Community firearms, community fear.



The Case for Gun Policy Reforms in America

that study was from 1998 during the assalut weapons ban . what a joke ! http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9715182 One city is a ghetto the other city gun free zone filled with flaming liberals . and Im quite sure the texas city was just tossed in to make it fair . http://www.khou.com/news/texas-news/...185429122.html Liberalism is a Mental Disorder .

[plane852]

I really dont belive tha to be true . Statistics show that gun free zones and cities like Chicago there are more violent crimes and murders . Ill take real statisitics over any egg head study.

So...you're only going to believe statistics that make your case?

Im sure it more the weather more then anything else . The weather in the UK sucks from what im told.

It rains a lot there, but it's not too awful.

The only fear iv seen from the NRA is the fear of the loss of the second admendment and Obama.

What do you expect them to do - say that Obama is getting tough on guns for the good of the nation? They are the National Rifle Association - they'll say whatever they need to in order to get their community's feathers ruffled and spark protests. NRA can scream elimination of the 2nd amendment all they want - it's not true, and as far as I can see it's not going to be in the long term.

[Joe]

How is this even relevant to the discussion?

He is using a Gun ?

[Joe]

So...you're only going to believe statistics that make your case?




It rains a lot there, but it's not too awful.



What do you expect them to do - say that Obama is getting tough on guns for the good of the nation? They are the National Rifle Association - they'll say whatever they need to in order to get their community's feathers ruffled and spark protests. NRA can scream elimination of the 2nd amendment all they want - it's not true, and as far as I can see it's not going to be in the long term.

Obama do anything for the good of the nation ? No there all scared of the second admendment the way it should be . “When the people fear the government there is tyranny, when the government fears the people there is liberty.”

― Thomas Jefferson

[plane852]

Liberalism is a Mental Disorder.

Snide remarks like that do not help your case in the least, you know.

[plane852]

He is using a Gun ?

Shoots like a girl comment was what I'm talking about. He's shooting a gun - so what? He has that right.

[Joe]

[QUOTE=plane852;25946]Snide remarks like that do not help your case in the least, you know.[/QUOTE) Thats a book title read it youll then understand . Dont tell me your all Libs ???

[Joe]

Shoots like a girl comment was what I'm talking about. He's shooting a gun - so what? He has that right.

poser photo op is what that was . Dont tell me you like him ?

[plane852]

Obama do anything for the good of the nation ? No there all scared of the second admendment the way it should be . “When the people fear the government there is tyranny, when the government fears the people there is liberty.”


― Thomas Jefferson

*They're.

Obama doing the nation good is a different argument entirely. Who is scared of the 2nd amendment the way it should be?

You're playing right into Mick's comment about the NRA generating fear - you're scared that Obama is going to take away the right to defend yourself because the NRA said so, even though Obama never said anything about doing such a thing. Why wouldn't they say that - they have a clear agenda, and saying something as ridiculous as Obama taking away the 2nd amendment plays into it perfectly.

[plane852]

poser photo op is what that was . Dont tell me you like him ?

A poser photo op...taken in August, months before this debate got to the level it is now? It's a photo of him shooting skeet because people didn't believe him when he said he has gone shooting before.

I do like him. I voted for him. So what?

[Joe]

*They're.

Obama doing the nation good is a different argument entirely. Who is scared of the 2nd amendment the way it should be?

You're playing right into Mick's comment about the NRA generating fear - you're scared that Obama is going to take away the right to defend yourself because the NRA said so, even though Obama never said anything about doing such a thing. Why wouldn't they say that - they have a clear agenda, and saying something as ridiculous as Obama taking away the 2nd amendment plays into it perfectly.

Do you have a clue about Fast and Furious ? Its not the NRA it is everything he does . I dont need the NRA to know what that moron is up too . I guess millions think the same ? Clinton Sure tried and failed . When Obama and his minions go after the gaming industry for their supposed role then Mick will be up in arms when it affects him . but he doest own a gun so why should he care . You must be a Obama zombie .

[Joe]

A poser photo op...taken in August, months before this debate got to the level it is now? It's a photo of him shooting skeet because people didn't believe him when he said he has gone shooting before.

I do like him. I voted for him. So what?

ROTFLMAO no wonder i get so much slack here , I wonder who Mick voted for ? Ron Paul ? again What state do you live in ? or city ? You see mine is posted . Not planet Earth

[plane852]

Do you have a clue about Fast and Furious ? Its not the NRA it is everything he does . I dont need the NRA to know what that moron is up too . I guess millions think the same ? Clinton Sure tried and failed . When Obama and his minions go after the gaming industry for their supposed role then Mick will be up in arms when it affects him . but he doest own a gun so why should he care . You must be a Obama zombie .

The Obama Administration can't really go after the gaming industry for anything, even if there was a link between them and murderers.
http://www.businessweek.com/articles...-game-industry

Supporting Obama does not mean I agree with everything he does. Fast and Furious was a big lapse in judgement, I agree. I never said anything above saying I ever supported that program.

Millions have the common sense to see Obama wants to ban certain clip sizes, not guns outright. You seem to be missing that point entirely.

Obama zombie? No, see above.

[plane852]

ROTFLMAO no wonder i get so much slack here , I wonder who Mick voted for ? Ron Paul ? again What state do you live in ? or city ? You see mine is posted . Not planet Earth

I posted Planet Earth as a joke - clearly you missed that, I've posted my location quite a few times in this forum. I live in North Dakota.

[Joe]

The Obama Administration can't really go after the gaming industry for anything, even if there was a link between them and murderers.
http://www.businessweek.com/articles...-game-industry

Supporting Obama does not mean I agree with everything he does. Fast and Furious was a big lapse in judgement, I agree. I never said anything above saying I ever supported that program.

Millions have the common sense to see Obama wants to ban certain clip sizes, not guns outright. You seem to be missing that point entirely.

Obama zombie? No, see above.

What was so good that he was worth reelecting ? Or was it just the lesser of two evils as with my vote ? Its magazine size not clip by the way . Whats wrong with 30 rounds in the hands of law abiding citizens . 100 round mags always fail and are more just nolvety item .wow N Dakota too cold for me

[Joe]

The Obama Administration can't really go after the gaming industry for anything, even if there was a link between them and murderers.
http://www.businessweek.com/articles...-game-industry

Supporting Obama does not mean I agree with everything he does. Fast and Furious was a big lapse in judgement, I agree. I never said anything above saying I ever supported that program.

Millions have the common sense to see Obama wants to ban certain clip sizes, not guns outright. You seem to be missing that point entirely.

Obama zombie? No, see above.

As far as going after the gaming industry ? Lawyers will do anything for a buck . They used the first Admendment FREE SPEECH . If they can tear apart the second they can also do the same for the first .

[plane852]

What was so good that he was worth reelecting ? Or was it just the lesser of two evils as with my vote ? Its magazine size not clip by the way . Whats wrong with 30 rounds in the hands of law abiding citizens . 100 round mags always fail and are more just nolvety item .

Thanks for the correction.

I could list the reasons why I thought he deserved my vote, but it's kind of pointless since you've pretty much made up your mind about him. Long story short, I agreed with some things he did - not all.

[plane852]

As far as going after the gaming industry ? Lawyers will do anything for a buck . They used the first Admendment FREE SPEECH . If they can tear apart the second they can also do the same for the first .

Except the 2nd amendment hasn't been torn apart, as its been told to you time and time again, so your argument is essentially moot.

You've essentially dismissed everything we've presented as junk. What do you have? I'd love to see a link between violent video games and crime, if you have it. I'd love to see any place where Obama wants to take away the right to defend yourself, if you have it. So where is it?

[Joe]

Thanks for the correction.

I could list the reasons why I thought he deserved my vote, but it's kind of pointless since you've pretty much made up your mind about him. Long story short, I agreed with some things he did - not all.

Yea my mind is made up On Obama he sucks ! Whats the point ? You like Obama there isnt much to say other then we wont agree on anything . Class warfare redistribution of wealth ? Chicago politics ? Race baiting ? Anti gun ? fraud and cheif ! name 1 good thing he did ? Not that bullcrap about Bin Laden Or Ending the war in Iraq ? Divide Americans ?