Debunked: No Freedom Without Second Amendment

[Cairenn]

There are municipalities that do not allow pit or 'bully breeds'. Just like some cities having tougher gun laws. Also, that graph is misleading, since it does not account for the percentage of dogs that are 'pits'. Also, some dogs are labeled 'pits' that are NOT. I know of one lady that had a DNA test on her lab cross, ZERO % of pit blood, but the dog catcher in her little back bayou Louisiana town, has told them that he doesn't care. HE knows a pit and Jake is a pit, NO matter what any one else says, including science.

I see no proposal to REGISTER the guns folks already own. and NONE to take your guns.

So you don't have a problem with mentally ill folks owning guns? It seems that the vet here in Texas would have been better off without one. BTW, he is on suicide watch.

One of the big problems with the mental health background checks is that mental health problems come in many varieties and they would not all interfere with owning a gun. That one needs work, a LOT of work.

[Joe]

There are municipalities that do not allow pit or 'bully breeds'. Just like some cities having tougher gun laws. Also, that graph is misleading, since it does not account for the percentage of dogs that are 'pits'. Also, some dogs are labeled 'pits' that are NOT. I know of one lady that had a DNA test on her lab cross, ZERO % of pit blood, but the dog catcher in her little back bayou Louisiana town, has told them that he doesn't care. HE knows a pit and Jake is a pit, NO matter what any one else says, including science.

I see no proposal to REGISTER the guns folks already own. and NONE to take your guns.

So you don't have a problem with mentally ill folks owning guns? It seems that the vet here in Texas would have been better off without one. BTW, he is on suicide watch.

One of the big problems with the mental health background checks is that mental health problems come in many varieties and they would not all interfere with owning a gun. That one needs work, a LOT of work.

I wasnt serious about the pit bull statement that was in reply to Mikeys as well as your post since they were irrellevent . You Cannot debunk what has not happened yet . So you and I dont know . kinda like the healtcare bill called Obama care we have to wait to see whats in it .

[Joe]

Piers Morgan shoots AR-15 Interview with Ted Nugent

[Cairenn]

We do KNOW what has been proposed. NO seizure of weapons has been proposed. No end to the Second Amendment has been proposed.

[Joe]

We do KNOW what has been proposed. NO seizure of weapons has been proposed. No end to the Second Amendment has been proposed.

Correct we do not know what will be proposed .

[Mick]

Correct we do not know what will be proposed .

So all you are saying is that you are suspicious of Obama taking your guns? Despite there being no evidence he has that intent, and despite a very strong supreme court ruling in favor of the 2nd in 2008

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distric...mbia_v._Heller

Content from external source:

On June 26, 2008, the Supreme Court affirmed the Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit in Heller v. District of Columbia.[3][4] The Court of Appeals had struck down provisions of the Firearms Control Regulations Act of 1975 as unconstitutional, determined that handguns are "arms" for the purposes of the Second Amendment, found that the District of Columbia's regulations act was an unconstitutional banning, and struck down the portion of the regulations act that requires all firearms including rifles and shotguns be kept "unloaded and disassembled or bound by a trigger lock." "Prior to this decision the Firearms Control Regulation Act of 1975 also restricted residents from owning handguns except for those registered prior to 1975."[5]

What do you think he's going to do? Change the constitution by executive order? Have John Roberts assassinated?

[Joe]

So all you are saying is that you are suspicious of Obama taking your guns? Despite there being no evidence he has that intent, and despite a very strong supreme court ruling in favor of the 2nd in 2008

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distric...mbia_v._Heller

Content from external source:

On June 26, 2008, the Supreme Court affirmed the Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit in Heller v. District of Columbia.[3][4] The Court of Appeals had struck down provisions of the Firearms Control Regulations Act of 1975 as unconstitutional, determined that handguns are "arms" for the purposes of the Second Amendment, found that the District of Columbia's regulations act was an unconstitutional banning, and struck down the portion of the regulations act that requires all firearms including rifles and shotguns be kept "unloaded and disassembled or bound by a trigger lock." "Prior to this decision the Firearms Control Regulation Act of 1975 also restricted residents from owning handguns except for those registered prior to 1975."[5]

What do you think he's going to do? Change the constitution by executive order? Have John Roberts assassinated?

No wait for another crisis and use it as in Sandy hook . Little steps bit by bit like a progressive .

[Mick]

No wait for another crisis and use it as in Sandy hook . Little steps bit by bit like a progressive .

But what exactly do you think they are going to do? They can't get past that supreme court ruling, and the Republicans are very unlikely to support any measures. What are you afraid will happen in the next 20 years?

[MikeC]

ITS FINE THEY PURCHASED BILLIONS OF ROUNDS OF HOLLOW POINTS ? which are used for killing not target practice .

Debunked already - http://metabunk.org/threads/599-Debu...use-in-America

[Joe]

Debunked already - http://metabunk.org/threads/599-Debu...use-in-America

http://www.businessinsider.com/why-d...unition-2012-8

[Joe]

But what exactly do you think they are going to do? They can't get past that supreme court ruling, and the Republicans are very unlikely to support any measures. What are you afraid will happen in the next 20 years?

Well anyone diagnosed with PTSD will lose their right . First they will start with the so called assault rifle as mentioned . I believe there is in Obama care provisions where you will be asked if you own a firearm . they will make it unaffordable to own a gun . There are lots of ways . Make ammo so expensive or just hard to get . Just becuase you have so much faith in our dear leaders doesnt mean anyone else does . In 20 years will be stuck with baseball bats as in the UK .

[Mick]

Well anyone diagnosed with PTSD will lose their right . First they will start with the so called assault rifle as mentioned . I believe there is in Obama care provisions where you will be asked if you own a firearm . they will make it unaffordable to own a gun . There are lots of ways . Make ammo so expensive or just hard to get . Just becuase you have so much faith in our dear leaders doesnt mean anyone else does . In 20 years will be stuck with baseball bats as in the UK .

I bet you one Glock 17, and 1000 rounds of ammo to fit, or one ounce of gold if I can't get a Glock 17, against $100 that this (stuck with baseball bats) does not happen.

If you'd like to make a shorter term (say 4 years) prediction, then we can bet on that as well, similar odds.

[Joe]

I bet you one Glock 17, and 1000 rounds of ammo to fit, or one ounce of gold if I can't get a Glock 17, against $100 that this (stuck with baseball bats) does not happen.

If you'd like to make a shorter term (say 4 years) prediction, then we can bet on that as well, similar odds.

I pray your right and im wrong . 4 years Ill bet you a Louisville slugger you can send it to any freinds you have in the UK

[Mick]

I pray your right and im wrong . 4 years Ill bet you a Louisville slugger you can send it to any freinds you have in the UK

What do you bet will happen in four years?

[Joe]

What do you bet will happen in four years?

Well I believe they will try real hard to go afer what they said they wanted . Quite possibly Civil unrest which they are and have been training for . anything from finacial collapse to a terrorsits attack to George Zimmerman getting off . As much as I love where you live I would not feel safe . LA is a powderkeg . I could be totally wrong and would rather be , But as a Dad and a grandfather I belive its my duty to prepare for the worst and pray for the best . Were you around there in april 1992 ? LA riots ?

[Mick]

Well I believe they will try real hard to go afer what they said they wanted . Quite possibly Civil unrest which they are and have been training for . anything from finacial collapse to a terrorsits attack to George Zimmerman getting off . As much as I love where you live I would not feel safe . LA is a powderkeg . I could be totally wrong and would rather be , But as a Dad and a grandfather I belive its my duty to prepare for the worst and pray for the best . Were you around there in april 1992 ? LA riots ?

I arrived just after, in 1993. Maybe there will be more riots, it's part of civilization. But your odds of getting hurt in a riot are vastly less than accidentally shooting yourself or someone nearby during any 20 year period of owning a gun. So I'm playing the odds.

Speaking of which, you don't think anything specific will happen in the next four years?

[Joe]

I arrived just after, in 1993. Maybe there will be more riots, it's part of civilization. But your odds of getting hurt in a riot are vastly less than accidentally shooting yourself or someone nearby during any 20 year period of owning a gun. So I'm playing the odds.

Speaking of which, you don't think anything specific will happen in the next four years?

CALIF. DEMOCRATS ACTUALLY WANT TO FORCE ALL GUN OWNERS TO BUY LIABILITY INSURANCE http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013...ity-insurance/

[Joe]

I arrived just after, in 1993. Maybe there will be more riots, it's part of civilization. But your odds of getting hurt in a riot are vastly less than accidentally shooting yourself or someone nearby during any 20 year period of owning a gun. So I'm playing the odds.

Speaking of which, you don't think anything specific will happen in the next four years?

Ill have to call Cleo see what she thinks ? No I dont really Know . Who know with these clowns ? Anything is possible ? I hope nothing happens. Maybe we all get unicorns to transport us to utopia

[Cairenn]

What is wrong with that?

That is STILL not taking your guns from you.

[Mick]

CALIF. DEMOCRATS ACTUALLY WANT TO FORCE ALL GUN OWNERS TO BUY LIABILITY INSURANCE http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013...ity-insurance/

You want to put some money on that becoming law? I'll bet $20 even it does not.

[Joe]

You want to put some money on that becoming law? I'll bet $20 even it does not.

I dont think it will pass either . plus I dont gamble or watch football . If it does pass which I doubt doesnt matter to me becuase I dont live In California anymore . Or Mexifornia .

[Joe]

What is wrong with that?

That is STILL not taking your guns from you.

Whats wrong with forcing you to get insurance for owning a gun ? Everything even though it wont pass . More control more rules more money out of pocket . Wow you really bow to your leaders ? or what ? Bit By bit little by little chipping your rights away till one day there gone . Thats how progressives work . Like the frog in Boiling water . Slowly turning up the temp till your cooked .

[MikeC]

http://www.businessinsider.com/why-d...unition-2012-8

Dude READ THE LINK I PROVIDED - it is ALL debunked already.

1/ 174,000 rounds is not very many.

2/ As with pretty much every Federal agency that deals in money transfers, the SSA has armed officers with statutory law enforcement authority. For the SSA these are in their office of the Investigator General who deal with fraud and malfeasance.

3/ .357 magnum do NOT have "arguably have as much stopping power as any bullet out there" - they are not even close. They are a good balance of stopping power and ease-of-use - but various .40+ calibers have bucketloads more stopping power.

4/ And this is also BS - "and hollow points do as much damage to soft tissue as possible on top of that" - NO - since the descriptions is ".357 hollow point" them being hollow point is INCLUDED in that.

[Cairenn]

I am not sure about this, but I think I remember reading that they like hollow points to reduce the chance of bullets going through someone and hitting bystanders

It seems that Wikipedia agrees with that

"Despite the ban on military use, hollow-point bullets are one of the most common types of civilian and police ammunition,[citation needed] due largely to the reduced risk of bystanders being hit by over-penetrating or ricocheted bullets, and the increased speed of incapacitation."

[MikeC]

Indeed - as was clearly explained in the Metabunk thread I linked to.

[Biggerdave]

Well anyone diagnosed with PTSD will lose their right . First they will start with the so called assault rifle as mentioned . I believe there is in Obama care provisions where you will be asked if you own a firearm . they will make it unaffordable to own a gun . There are lots of ways . Make ammo so expensive or just hard to get . Just becuase you have so much faith in our dear leaders doesnt mean anyone else does . In 20 years will be stuck with baseball bats as in the UK .

Not baseball bats old boy, but cricket bats ;-)

[LoremIpsum]

something a New Zealander will never understand , How will you protect yourself is Austraila invades ?

I'm a bit late to this thread, and indeed haven't even read it all, but I just wanted to add that Australia doesn't have the right to bear arms either, so when we held the meeting where we decided to invade New Zealand we agreed we'd just bare-knuckle it.

[Joe]

I'm a bit late to this thread, and indeed haven't even read it all, but I just wanted to add that Australia doesn't have the right to bear arms either, so when we held the meeting where we decided to invade New Zealand we agreed we'd just bare-knuckle it.

Id love to see that

[scombrid]

I believe there is in Obama care provisions where you will be asked if you own a firearm .

Incorrect.

Exactly the opposite of your belief is true in this case.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickunga...guns-and-ammo/

[MikeC]

Id love to see that

any Wallabies-All Blacks rugby match

Aussies might have the "right" to own guns - but they still have millions of them.

According to the same site New Zealand only has 1 million or so.

[LoremIpsum]

Huh? That site says, re civilian guns, Australians have 15 per 100 people and NZ has 22.6 per 100 people.

[TWCobra]

As far as I can tell, the angst felt by many Americans over proposed changes in gun laws stems from the fact that gun ownership is a right enshrined in the Constitution, rather a than a law which can be easily amended, which is the norm in most other countries.

So, to Americans, repealing the 2nd amendment is akin to repealing the right to vote or the right to a fair trial? Would this be a fair summation?

[MikeC]

Huh? That site says, re civilian guns, Australians have 15 per 100 people and NZ has 22.6 per 100 people.

That's about right.

And that amounts to about 3 million guns in Aus (15 per 100 for 20+ million) and 1 million in NZ (pop'n about 4.4 million at abt 22 guns/10)

Hence my comment that the Aussies have "millions " of guns - 3 million or so, while Kiwis only have about 1 million.

[Joe]

I think The UK should ban Automobiles

[Biggerdave]

I think The UK should ban Automobiles

You would get no argument from me. That particular stretch of road is going to be subject to further traffic calming measures
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co....r-green-694503

Manchester itself has tried to ban or restrict the use of private cars into the city centre for a number of years and it is still a central issue to its strategic transport plan. For myself I was part of a movement called "Reclaim the Streets" and we had a number if demonstrations. This resulted in a total ban on cars in a couple if streets in my then local area. I would argue that financial constraints are effectively banning some drivers e.g young folk.

Then again you may have been joking.

[Joe]

Its looks like this guy meant to do it . No brake lights . Looks like jihad ?

[Mick]

I cycled on that road daily for about six years, slipstreaming busses.

Looks like a drunk driver. Anyway, it's a silly argument saying "X can kill people, so lets ban X". That's not what people are arguing about guns, or cars. It's really "Unsafe X kills lots of people, so let's make X safer, and discourage unsafe X, so it kills fewer".

[Edit: actually I cycled on Oxford road, mentioned in the MEN link, not the road in the video, although it is near where I worked]

[Cairenn]

What keeps getting lost in the gun death discussions, is that out of the 30,000 gun deaths in the US, each year, only a third of those are from criminals. Around 20,000 of them are suicides. While there are other methods, guns are more often fatal on the first try. Their availability in so many homes, is the problem. While new laws might reduce the purchase of a few guns, what is needed is more public awareness of that, and more guidance as to how to recognize suicidal thoughts in a family member and what they can do to remove guns from easy access. Many suicides are spur of the moment decisions, and even 15 min can save a life.

Off my soapbox

[Biggerdave]

Its looks like this guy meant to do it . No brake lights . Looks like jihad ?

Brilliant. [...]

[Joe]

What keeps getting lost in the gun death discussions, is that out of the 30,000 gun deaths in the US, each year, only a third of those are from criminals. Around 20,000 of them are suicides. While there are other methods, guns are more often fatal on the first try. Their availability in so many homes, is the problem. While new laws might reduce the purchase of a few guns, what is needed is more public awareness of that, and more guidance as to how to recognize suicidal thoughts in a family member and what they can do to remove guns from easy access. Many suicides are spur of the moment decisions, and even 15 min can save a life.

Off my soapbox

No whats not being said is how many lives it saves . Suicide is not a spur of the moment decision that occurs when there is nothing better to do. Traditionally, it is preceded with forethought, elaborate preparation and some important clues. Even New Zealand has a higher rate of suicide then America even with Obama as President .