Not sure if there is a thread on Smart Meters and the hysteria surrounding them yet (if there is feel free to move this)-
But Anthony Hilder has a new video with more over-the-top claims on the effects of Smart Meters:
http://aircrap.org/20-million-death-...er-ajh/333866/
As he ages he gets worse. This is the end result of many many years of paranoiac thinking.
Last edited by Mick; May 31st, 2012 at 01:11 PM. Reason: minor politeness edit
"A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ...Mark Twain
http://www.skepticblog.org/2011/06/2...eter-paranoia/
quote:
Now, I'm not certain of the accuracy of those figures.....but I am less inclined to believe the "technophobia" associated with frightened people.So how does a smart meter’s power output compare to other ordinary devices in the same power range? Well, first of all, a smart meter is almost never transmitting anything at all. Ours transmit for a total of about one minute a day, about .07% of the time. During those brief pulses, standing two feet away from the smart meter while it’s transmitting exposes you to:
About half of what you’d get in a Starbuck’s with Wi-Fi
About half of using laptop computer
Less than 2% of what you’d get using the most powerful walkie-talkie
Less than 1/3 of what you’d get holding the most powerful cell phone to your head
Or about .002 of what you’d get putting your face 2 inches from a running microwave oven.
Frightened people have a tendency to exaggerate, to help justify their beliefs.
(to be fair, skeptics have a tendency to exaggerate their skepticism, to justify their beliefs.)
Last edited by Stupid; May 31st, 2012 at 12:44 PM.
"You've been Blaylocked !!"
http://healthvermont.gov/pubs/ph_ass...art_meters.pdf
Do you have wifi in your house ?
What are you viewing this thread on.....a computer with a flatscreen ?
"ring ring"......answer your cell phone.
RF and EMF's are everywhere. I'm not saying that a collective more is better or worse, but that pro-active avoidance can reach unrealistic and paranoid levels.
"You've been Blaylocked !!"
Fascinating that smart meters are considered a "patriot" issue. It's almost like someone has conjured up fake issues to mask the real issues.
It's always a little suspicious when someone adds a "dr" or "PhD", but does not mention what that's in. His web site says:
Content from external source:
Jeffry Fawcett, PhD is a writer and independent scholar. He co-produces the Your Own Health And Fitness to which he regularly contributes commentaries on current health news and politics—commentaries that are distributed on the Pacific Radio Network as the Health Bites series. He is the principal author and publisher of Too Much Medicine, Not Enough Health, a book he wrote with Layna Berman. His experience includes development of university courses in holistic health. For the last six years he has maintained a private health education practicethat provides clients with individualized advice on non-invasive, non-pharmaceutical health protection and health promotion from the critical perspective of Your Own Health And Fitness.
http://www.campmeeker.org/wordpress/?page_id=353
His PhD in environmental economics and political economy is from UC Riverside. His professional background includes work as an economist in land use management, documentation of business processes, and website development and technical documentation. His previous public service includes a term on the City of Santa Cruz Water Commission.
In other words - not an expert on either health, or EM radiation. (I point this out because the "Expert" tag on the video above).
I have a Masters degree.
Stupid, MFA
That does not make me an expert on anything, other to than have successfully plowed my way through a graduate program.
(not demeaning my time there....it was wonderful)
Last edited by Stupid; May 31st, 2012 at 03:51 PM. Reason: added "to"
"You've been Blaylocked !!"
I refused my smart meter . They are made by GE in China or and arent UL tested , There have been reported problems with them . Ill get one maybe when theyve been tested a little more in someone elses house .
Who says they are not UL tested/certified ?
http://www.ul.com/global/documents/o...ng_2011_V2.pdf
maybe not all of them are.....as this reader replied:
http://smartmetermatrix.org/node/39
I guess if that's important to you, then you could call your energy supplier, and ask them...... then call your homeowner insurance company to see if the installation of such a device is covered for possible damage caused by that installed device.
"You've been Blaylocked !!"
The best reason to refuse the SMART METER is so as to not open up your homes power to outside influence regardless of where it comes from be it the utility or someone who's hacked the wireless on it. Kudos to that poster for saying NO to the dumb meter.
I'd actually quite like a smart meter, as I'm trying to reduce my home's energy usage as much as possible, and it would be good to get a precise measure.
The hacking issue could be a concern though - although my powers is unreliable enough as it is.
As an IT worker myself I can definitely see the appeal of a Smart Meter like device to regulate power. Unfortunately its turning out to be a poorly implemented system because the entities involved have no concern over whether or not someone other than the utility itself might be able to gain access to your system. But even if it were secure enough that it was hack proof or the foreseeable future (at least 1 enterprising coder has hacked a smart meter and posted the results on the web although I admit I can't remember where exactly as it was months ago I read about it) I'd still resist if for no reason other than the desperate/unethical ( maybe even illegal depending on the state) tactics the larger utilities have engaged in to trick customers into accepting a smart meter. You know that someone somewhere is getting paid (i.e. a kickback) to push them meters because no company would continue engaging in these kinds of negative actions unless someone in charge had an incentive to do so.
I admit that I'm speculating about someone getting paid to do this but it is a logical conclusion to explain the actions. Then again sometimes it's just incompetence that can come from an entity that’s gotten too big. If they offered smart meters that were only accessible thru an interior interface and no broadcasting then I would definitely give that a look.
I am curious- how are people being "tricked" into using Smart meters? My utility (one of the largest in the country) simply told me they were going to roll them out and offered an "opt-out" if I wanted.
The incentive is increased efficiency which lowers cost for the utilities. Smart meters allow for flexible rate scheduling which empowers consumers to evaluate their usage and have greater insight and control over how they spend their energy $$. The new data is integrated into the billing system, the outage management system, the mobile workforce system...The energy grid is woefully outdated in this country and it needs the step up to the new reality of technology.
The energy grid is changing with inputs from natural gas, solar, wind etc...and with new models like micro-grids- the old infrastructure cannot keep up...having more accurate data allows for improved operational efficiency and reliability, enhanced customer experience and greater resource conservation.
Its estimated that 30% of all fresh water used for consumption is unaccounted for. Water companies are implementing smart meters to help rectify that...
The health risks of Smart meters is a myth....security? Yes, there is concern over this- but more on the aggregate level with data injections effecting entire grids rather than individual meters being hacked...but the industry is attempting to address this.
I suppose you can always call your utility to complain about the health and security of your smart meter on your cell phone...
I realize this does not qualify as "tricked" but is instead better classified as "threatened". One of my co-workers whose spouse is a lawyer (I admit I don't know what the spouse specializes in however the study of law in any specialty should help to better understand dealing with the law in general ) has gotten their "you have no choice" smart meter notice from one of the major power utilities. After some checking into it he told me that they have no choice in the matter. His spouse checked also and confirmed that unless the state forces the utility to allow an opt-out that the citizens have no choice even though they own their homes. The power of lobbying; a completely legalized form or bribery. I would find it hard to believe that in this day and age anyone, even the "debunkers" would see the whole lobbying industry as anything but legalized pay-offs.I am curious- how are people being "tricked" into using Smart meters? My utility (one of the largest in the country) simply told me they were going to roll them out and offered an "opt-out" if I wanted.
The incentive is increased efficiency which lowers cost for the utilities. Smart meters allow for flexible rate scheduling which empowers consumers to evaluate their usage and have greater insight and control over how they spend their energy $$. The new data is integrated into the billing system, the outage management system, the mobile workforce system...The energy grid is woefully outdated in this country and it needs the step up to the new reality of technology.
The energy grid is changing with inputs from natural gas, solar, wind etc...and with new models like micro-grids- the old infrastructure cannot keep up...having more accurate data allows for improved operational efficiency and reliability, enhanced customer experience and greater resource conservation.
Its estimated that 30% of all fresh water used for consumption is unaccounted for. Water companies are implementing smart meters to help rectify that...
The health risks of Smart meters is a myth....security? Yes, there is concern over this- but more on the aggregate level with data injections effecting entire grids rather than individual meters being hacked...but the industry is attempting to address this.
I suppose you can always call your utility to complain about the health and security of your smart meter on your cell phone...
BTW - I was wrong about their not having a choice. They can choose to have their power turned off as was promised by the utility if they should in any way prevent the service technician from installing the smart meter. So much for the old sayinging "The customer is always right". It would be one thing if the product in question were not a necessity like water and food. While you could argue that man/woman kind can live without power I believe we would all still agree that power should be considered a need and that so long as someone pays for it the power company should not be able to deny the customer service.
Can you post the notice they received or at the very least give the name of the utility, state?
Smart meters sound like a good idea . They are however part of Agenda 21 sustainable development . It would be smart to not have 1 installed . Smart meters are dumb .
AFAIK power meters are almost universally the property of the power supplier whether that be gas or electricity - I know my ones are.
therefore, yeah - if they need to do something to their meter or change it you have to give them access, and if you do not like the meter they want to use your only option is not to use them as a supplier, and if all your possible alternative suppliers also use smartmeters then you are either SOOL or off the grid.
TCSW - what is actually dumb about sustainable development and smart meters??
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction." -Pascal
"It is very important not to mistake hemlock for parsley; but not at all so to believe or not in God" - Diderot
Nothing if you like being treated as a collective soceity . Its about FREEDOM . UN mandates dont really impress me much . But thats just me
society is collective - by definition. Using up hte worlds resources, or not doing so, will affect everyone - there is no escaping that our actions affect each other.
so, again, what is i that is wrong with sustainability - because if there is actually something wrong with it then I see no reason why "freedom" makes any difference to that.
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction." -Pascal
"It is very important not to mistake hemlock for parsley; but not at all so to believe or not in God" - Diderot
What about each individual's freedom, and all the other critters we share this planet of finite resources with, what of the freedom to drink clean water, breath fresh air and eat healthy food? Just ignore the extensive system of roads and bridges, law enforcement and fire protection services that society collectively relies on to ensure safety and yes, even freedom for each individual.Nothing if you like being treated as a collective soceity . Its about FREEDOM . UN mandates dont really impress me much . But thats just me.
The Ayn Rand version of "freedom" doesn't really impress me much, but that's just me.
"Just ignore the extensive system of roads and bridges, law enforcement and fire protection services that society collectively relies on to ensure safety " Just ignore the fact that hours that we work and are taxed for provide all those services and jobs for the fire fighters and police ect . Sustainable development Agenda 21 is Scam . United Nations bullcrap redistribution of wealth . World Wide Socialism . No thanks. Ill take my individual freedom .
Ant and bee colonies are a collective .
And so what?
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction." -Pascal
"It is very important not to mistake hemlock for parsley; but not at all so to believe or not in God" - Diderot
1/ yes tax pays for a lot of infrastructure - and without a society you would not have them
2/ why is Agenda 21 a scam? Just above you said that sustainable development was reasonable.
3/ What UN "bullcrap" on redistribution of wealth?
4/ Your freedom is actually best ensured by a well run society with reasonable rules, the ability to enforce them, and a willingness to make some sacrifices to that end. without that you do not have freedom at all - you have poverty, starvation, fear and uncertainty.
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction." -Pascal
"It is very important not to mistake hemlock for parsley; but not at all so to believe or not in God" - Diderot
The idea of sustainability sounds good but its all a scam . No property rights . no rights whatsoever 1 giant police state .
Are you going to tell us why it is a scam, or just continue to make various accusations without backing them up with some evidence?
Or perhaps you could explain what ant and bee colonies have to do with the topic??
Last edited by MikeC; August 13th, 2012 at 08:09 PM.
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction." -Pascal
"It is very important not to mistake hemlock for parsley; but not at all so to believe or not in God" - Diderot
you said we were a collective society . No I wont waste my time sharing all I know about Agenda 21 and the fight against it in the United States . You apparently worship government and trust them with your future . We have whats called in our area becuase they are afraid to use the term Seven50 . Progressive always change their identity . look it up
Here! Here!
I agree. My issue with the smart meters is not all this hysteria about health issues. For me it's about privacy. I don't want anybody or anything monitoring my electrical use in such detail. I pay for it, it's nobody's business how and when i use my electricity. Not to mention, if the information is not protected adequately, couldn't a nefarious minded person piece together when you go to work, when you sleep, etc.?
There is also the issue (is it fact or fiction?) of these meters eventually receiving instructions to alter your usage during peak hours. Not going to happen. In my book this would be approaching soviet-style government controls.
If i pay for it, i get to use it as i see fit.
Here in California there is a volunteer program of smart thermostats that can be remotely programmed during a "flex alert". My old neighbor had one, and said it's reduced his bill quite a bit. Paying less for less control seems like a reasonable option. It was especially good for him as he said he'd never used the AC in the last six years, living pretty close to the ocean.
http://www.sce.com/info/PowerOutages...ources/SDP.htm
Once you enroll in the Summer Discount Plan, we will install a small device on or near the outside of your central air conditioning that receives a remote radio signal allowing us to temporarily turn off your A/C when necessary. The indicator light on the device glows solid green when your A/C is working normally, and blinks when a remote interruption is in progress.
As long as it's voluntary i don't have a problem with it. It's if/when they try to make it mandatory i will engage my lawyers.Here in California there is a volunteer program of smart thermostats that can be remotely programmed during a "flex alert". My old neighbor had one, and said it's reduced his bill quite a bit. Paying less for less control seems like a reasonable option. It was especially good for him as he said he'd never used the AC in the last six years, living pretty close to the ocean.
http://www.sce.com/info/PowerOutages...ources/SDP.htm
Once you enroll in the Summer Discount Plan, we will install a small device on or near the outside of your central air conditioning that receives a remote radio signal allowing us to temporarily turn off your A/C when necessary. The indicator light on the device glows solid green when your A/C is working normally, and blinks when a remote interruption is in progress.
The timing of this conversation is funny because i'm currently having correspondence with my energy company regarding this issue. My meter is currently what they call a "wake up" meter - it wakes up and transmits data only when interrogated by an energy company vehicle driving by my house to collect the gross total energy used. My meter doesn't broadcast detailed usage information.
There is also the "bubble up" type meters. They're the ones that send out data on a regular bases automatically - no interrogation signal is needed.
I hear the arguments about limited energy resources. I'll be more open to this reasoning when people like Al Gore, Hollywood types, sports figures, members of congress, anybody and everybody living in luxury homes, are made to reduce their living space to 2,000 square feet or less. Until then, i can't take the limited resource argument very seriously. I'm not saying i want mandated house sizes, i just can't take the argument seriously when those making the argument don't take it seriously.
Thank you for sparing us your specious opinion.No I wont waste my time sharing all I know about Agenda 21 and the fight against it in the United States.
Why would they use the term Agenda21 in the first place? Long before Agenda21, most cities/counties/states have had economic, cultural and environmental development plans of some sort of which they're free to name them as they see fit. One of our local groups is called the Corvallis Sustainability Coalition, an organization I strongly support.We have whats called in our area becuase they are afraid to use the term Seven50.
Let's see what Seven50 is about:
What the heck is wrong with including anyone in the community who wants to participate in the betterment of their community?More than 500 residents, urban planners, business and civic leaders, elected officials, government leaders, and activists recently attended the first of a series of public summits to develop the “Seven50” plan, a 50-year blueprint to help ensure economic prosperity and the best-possible quality of life for the seven counties of Southeast Florida. About 100 additional people watched the event via a live webcast. Registration had been closed early for the over-booked event in Delray Beach, Fla.
[..]
Attendees discussed a variety of areas that they believe need attention and improvement, including: mass transit; environmental stewardship; water supply; business diversity, and economic resilience. They shared visions of a more pedestrian-friendly super-region that balances the need to accommodate population growths while retaining the cultural integrity and character of local communities.
And you still haven't answered why sustainability is a scam. I'd really like to know because I've been successfully participating in sustainable permaculture practices for years.
Really? Since when? Got any evidence?Progressive always change their identity.
As for smart meters, they make sense if the US is going to upgrade the precarious infrastructure of the electrical grid with diverse renewable energy sources and more efficiency.
No offense but your above comment seems contradictory.anybody and everybody living in luxury homes, are made to reduce their living space to 2,000 square feet or less....I'm not saying i want mandated house sizes,
I personally have no problem with smart meters...I have nothing to hide with my power usage..they allow ME to save money. Interval pricing is key to efficient use of energy. That others waste energy is really not a valid reason to do so yourself. Tragedy of the commons.
As Solrey said- the US Grid is woefully antiquated and the Smart Grid implementations taking place across Utilities are beneficial to everyone.
Last edited by SR1419; August 18th, 2012 at 05:34 PM.
Sure and when the smart grid is hacked or goes down then what ? Any thing called smart is dumb smart meters, smart grid ,smart appliances, all Chinese junk and spying equipment for the government . The only thing that would be smart is if we were all off the grid and generated our own power individually . Like Trapwire spying on Americans everywhere
Not sure why you fear this Smart Grid technology for your privacy all the while tapping away on the internet...You are far more vulnerable here.
The fact is the current infrastructure is much more vulnerable to widespread failure or attack now than it would/will be under the new power technology.
As long as i'm paying for my electricity, my usage is my business and i prefer to keep my usage data private. If homeowners want to volunteer their usage data, that's their business. To each his own.
Who determines what is a "waste of energy" or "beneficial to everyone" and when does government cross the line in the name of these objectives? In my book, it's when the government mandates behaviors under the threat of taking my freedom.
A waste of energy is an inefficient meter reading, a waste of energy is paying labor/fuel/maintence costs for a fleet of trucks and workers to walk door to door to read you meter when can be done by a computer from afar.As long as i'm paying for my electricity, my usage is my business and i prefer to keep my usage data private. If homeowners want to volunteer their usage data, that's their business. To each his own.
Who determines what is a "waste of energy" or "beneficial to everyone" and when does government cross the line in the name of these objectives? In my book, it's when the government mandates behaviors under the threat of taking my freedom.
Smart Meters are not a government mandate- Since a lot of the utility space has been deregulated, there are a lot more private providers. The 10 biggest Utilities in the country are private companies. Not to mention all the co-ops who are owned by the people who buy the power. They want to use smart meters to lower their costs and increase profits. Not because the government told them to.
I want a smart meter because it has the potential to save ME money...
I do not know that your usage data is yours to keep private- smart meter or not. You basically rent the right to receive power from your Utility. You are paying for the use of the infrastructure- not that you own the power when you pay your bill. ...again- that is speculation on my part- don't know thats the case.
...wrapping your power usage data in the cloak of "freedom" seems a bit over the top as you wrote it on the internet and no doubt have a cel phone...the data from both is easily obtained by the big bad government.
anybody and everybody living in luxury homes, are made to reduce their living space to 2,000 square feet or less....I'm not saying i want mandated house sizes,
still wondering about the above comment- did I miss the joke or is it a seeming contradiction?
- Repairing cars is a waste of energy. Ride a bicycle. Save money.
- Installing power cables is a waste of energy. Everybody move into apartments. Save money.
- Having more than one grocery store in a town is a waste of energy. Close down all but one grocery store per town. Save money.
- Manufacturing more than one make/model vehicle is a waste of energy. Everybody drive the same make and model and color. Save money.
- Painting homes larger than 1,500 square feet is a waste of energy. Everybody must downsize their homes. Save money.
- One person per cab is a waste of money. From now on, two-plus people per cab. Save money.
- Manufacturing toilets is a waste of energy. Use an outhouse. Save money.
- Building windows is a waste of energy. Two windows per house. Save money.
- Building computers is a waste of energy. One computer per home. Save money.
If the above examples are mandates i'm opposed. If the above are voluntary i'm not opposed.
How about an itemized copy of your VISA bill, an itemized copy of your cell phone bill and GPS records of your driving habits being collected, scrutinized and possibly published in public records? I mean, if you're not driving the shortest route from point "A" to point "B" you should be fined. Save energy. No?
I prefer my electric usage remain private.
My cell phone is voluntary. I have a choice. What choice do we have with a monopoly which provides a basic need in today's modern society? We must eat - another basic need. What if the place where we fulfill this basic need - the grocery store - collected your name and an itemized list of every item you purchased in order to store your consumption data in a database? I understand if you use a credit card this is probably being done already. Again, it comes down to mandatory versus voluntary.
Your confusion over my quote might be because you hacked it into pieces. Here it is in full (again):
I don't understand the confusion. What don't you understand? If efficiency and saving energy is such a priority, would we not become more efficient and conserve a lot more energy if we prevented people from buying homes beyond a certain size? Or would this infringe on somebody's freedom? I find it hypocritical to cry about energy conservation while allowing such waste by those with money. Shouldn't we mandate a maximum house size? If not, why not? No cloaks now.
^ Whatever- if you want to get sanctimonious about your power usage data- go for it.
Its not a mandate, you do have options.
Even before smart meters, your data wasn't "private"- your utility and the government have/had access to it.
The smart meter doesn't necessarily make YOU more efficient- you are still free to use the energy as you see fit. They make the utility more efficient and saves them money. Its their prerogative to use them. They want the "freedom" to use them.
Wanting the "freedom" to "waste" energy and be inefficient because others do so...seems like pretty suspect reasoning IMO.
..oh, and your grocery bill IS currently being parsed over and ads directed at you based on your buying habits.
I think in my original post, and every post thereafter, i emphasized "if it's voluntary, no problem." As long as it's a choice i'm okay with it.
I understand my power usage isn't private, but my usage is currently measured in monthly blocks. Not much can be distilled from such a block of data. Smart meters will have the ability to provide hourly readings, if not minute-to-minute. There may even come a day when smart appliances will provide their own feedback into the smart grid. I find such detailed data intrusive. Personal preference.
I don't want to waste energy. While energy costs money, who wants to waste energy? You either miss my point or intentionally skew it to avoid my points. But i'll play along with your version and ask, should those in luxury homes have the freedom to waste energy? Which takes me back to the examples in the beginning of my last message.
If you pay cash at your grocery store, they have your name associated with an itemized list of items you purchased? In what country do you live?
So, if it was voluntary (which it is-at least for my Utility- largest in the country) you would opt-in?
You freely give up your privacy to the internet, cel and credit card companies?
I am curious why you put such a premium on your power usage data?
As a consumer and rate payer- why wouldn't you want that data?
Smart meters in no way curtail your freedom to waste energy.
However, your reasoning around "wasting energy" is still problematic...you said this:
"i just can't take the argument seriously when those making the argument don't take it seriously."
and
"I find it hypocritical to cry about energy conservation while allowing such waste by those with money."
You said you do not want to waste energy- but since others are rich hypocrites you want the freedom to do so?
No, i wouldn't volunteer for the program if its going to detail how and when i use my electricity. I think of it as buying gas for my car - i fill up my tank, pay the price, then drive anywhere, anyhow i'd like.
It's not just a premium on my power usage data per se. As a gross monthly total i don't mind if it's painted on an 8' x 4' sign and planted in my front lawn for all to see. What i put a premium on is my privacy.
If i wanted the data, there are meters i can attach to my circuit breaker box that would provide me the information. In fact, if the electric company offered to install such a device for me to self-monitor my usage, i would sign up. If they want to install such an item for THEM to monitor me, no deal.
Smart meters don't YET curtail energy usage. But that may change in the future when smart appliances and smart thermostats kick into existence.
It's not problematic. My point is, how can we - as a nation, as individual activists - feign concern over energy conservation when we allow people to live in 10,000 square foot homes? We're either serious about how much "freedom people have to waste energy" or we're not. All I want is the same freedoms as those living in a 10,000 square foot home. That's all i'm saying.
"Freedom to waste energy" is a very clever twist on words. It feels like propaganda. Correction, it is propaganda. It does a great job of painting individual freedom of choice as a bad thing, something requiring control. Is that not what it implies?
I can't think of the exact logical fallacy this kind of phrasing represents, but it sets up a false choice. "Freedom to waste energy" registers with the brain as "Freedom = waste." On its face this appears to be a message in conflict with itself - like a scale out of balance - freedom is good, waste is bad, therefore one or the other must be compromised or eliminated from the equation to resolve the perceived conflict of terms. As it pertains to our discussion here, do you really think freedom = waste? I'm not being rhetorical.
Same idea as your phrase, but applied to reality:
- I'm cooking dinner with my girlfriend. I pass her the knife. I am giving her the freedom to stab me! *GASP!*
- My neighbor has the freedom to kill me.
- My dog has the freedom to bite me.
- I walk into Walmart, i am free to rob the place.
- Birds are free to crap on my head.
- My contractor is free to rip me off.
- The bus driver is free to run me over.
There is a whole lot of freedom out there with potential for bad things. With your penchant for false choices i hate to imagine how you would resolve these freedoms.
I have more sane solutions.
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