Not sure if there is a thread on Smart Meters and the hysteria surrounding them yet (if there is feel free to move this)-
But Anthony Hilder has a new video with more over-the-top claims on the effects of Smart Meters:
http://aircrap.org/20-million-death-...er-ajh/333866/
As he ages he gets worse. This is the end result of many many years of paranoiac thinking.
Last edited by Mick; May 31st, 2012 at 01:11 PM. Reason: minor politeness edit
"A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ...Mark Twain
http://www.skepticblog.org/2011/06/2...eter-paranoia/
quote:
Now, I'm not certain of the accuracy of those figures.....but I am less inclined to believe the "technophobia" associated with frightened people.So how does a smart meter’s power output compare to other ordinary devices in the same power range? Well, first of all, a smart meter is almost never transmitting anything at all. Ours transmit for a total of about one minute a day, about .07% of the time. During those brief pulses, standing two feet away from the smart meter while it’s transmitting exposes you to:
About half of what you’d get in a Starbuck’s with Wi-Fi
About half of using laptop computer
Less than 2% of what you’d get using the most powerful walkie-talkie
Less than 1/3 of what you’d get holding the most powerful cell phone to your head
Or about .002 of what you’d get putting your face 2 inches from a running microwave oven.
Frightened people have a tendency to exaggerate, to help justify their beliefs.
(to be fair, skeptics have a tendency to exaggerate their skepticism, to justify their beliefs.)
Last edited by Stupid; May 31st, 2012 at 12:44 PM.
"You've been Blaylocked !!"
http://healthvermont.gov/pubs/ph_ass...art_meters.pdf
Do you have wifi in your house ?
What are you viewing this thread on.....a computer with a flatscreen ?
"ring ring"......answer your cell phone.
RF and EMF's are everywhere. I'm not saying that a collective more is better or worse, but that pro-active avoidance can reach unrealistic and paranoid levels.
"You've been Blaylocked !!"
Fascinating that smart meters are considered a "patriot" issue. It's almost like someone has conjured up fake issues to mask the real issues.
It's always a little suspicious when someone adds a "dr" or "PhD", but does not mention what that's in. His web site says:
Content from external source:
Jeffry Fawcett, PhD is a writer and independent scholar. He co-produces the Your Own Health And Fitness to which he regularly contributes commentaries on current health news and politics—commentaries that are distributed on the Pacific Radio Network as the Health Bites series. He is the principal author and publisher of Too Much Medicine, Not Enough Health, a book he wrote with Layna Berman. His experience includes development of university courses in holistic health. For the last six years he has maintained a private health education practicethat provides clients with individualized advice on non-invasive, non-pharmaceutical health protection and health promotion from the critical perspective of Your Own Health And Fitness.
http://www.campmeeker.org/wordpress/?page_id=353
His PhD in environmental economics and political economy is from UC Riverside. His professional background includes work as an economist in land use management, documentation of business processes, and website development and technical documentation. His previous public service includes a term on the City of Santa Cruz Water Commission.
In other words - not an expert on either health, or EM radiation. (I point this out because the "Expert" tag on the video above).
I have a Masters degree.
Stupid, MFA
That does not make me an expert on anything, other to than have successfully plowed my way through a graduate program.
(not demeaning my time there....it was wonderful)
Last edited by Stupid; May 31st, 2012 at 03:51 PM. Reason: added "to"
"You've been Blaylocked !!"
I refused my smart meter . They are made by GE in China or and arent UL tested , There have been reported problems with them . Ill get one maybe when theyve been tested a little more in someone elses house .
Who says they are not UL tested/certified ?
http://www.ul.com/global/documents/o...ng_2011_V2.pdf
maybe not all of them are.....as this reader replied:
http://smartmetermatrix.org/node/39
I guess if that's important to you, then you could call your energy supplier, and ask them...... then call your homeowner insurance company to see if the installation of such a device is covered for possible damage caused by that installed device.
"You've been Blaylocked !!"
The best reason to refuse the SMART METER is so as to not open up your homes power to outside influence regardless of where it comes from be it the utility or someone who's hacked the wireless on it. Kudos to that poster for saying NO to the dumb meter.
Here! Here!
I agree. My issue with the smart meters is not all this hysteria about health issues. For me it's about privacy. I don't want anybody or anything monitoring my electrical use in such detail. I pay for it, it's nobody's business how and when i use my electricity. Not to mention, if the information is not protected adequately, couldn't a nefarious minded person piece together when you go to work, when you sleep, etc.?
There is also the issue (is it fact or fiction?) of these meters eventually receiving instructions to alter your usage during peak hours. Not going to happen. In my book this would be approaching soviet-style government controls.
If i pay for it, i get to use it as i see fit.
Here in California there is a volunteer program of smart thermostats that can be remotely programmed during a "flex alert". My old neighbor had one, and said it's reduced his bill quite a bit. Paying less for less control seems like a reasonable option. It was especially good for him as he said he'd never used the AC in the last six years, living pretty close to the ocean.
http://www.sce.com/info/PowerOutages...ources/SDP.htm
Once you enroll in the Summer Discount Plan, we will install a small device on or near the outside of your central air conditioning that receives a remote radio signal allowing us to temporarily turn off your A/C when necessary. The indicator light on the device glows solid green when your A/C is working normally, and blinks when a remote interruption is in progress.
I'd actually quite like a smart meter, as I'm trying to reduce my home's energy usage as much as possible, and it would be good to get a precise measure.
The hacking issue could be a concern though - although my powers is unreliable enough as it is.
As an IT worker myself I can definitely see the appeal of a Smart Meter like device to regulate power. Unfortunately its turning out to be a poorly implemented system because the entities involved have no concern over whether or not someone other than the utility itself might be able to gain access to your system. But even if it were secure enough that it was hack proof or the foreseeable future (at least 1 enterprising coder has hacked a smart meter and posted the results on the web although I admit I can't remember where exactly as it was months ago I read about it) I'd still resist if for no reason other than the desperate/unethical ( maybe even illegal depending on the state) tactics the larger utilities have engaged in to trick customers into accepting a smart meter. You know that someone somewhere is getting paid (i.e. a kickback) to push them meters because no company would continue engaging in these kinds of negative actions unless someone in charge had an incentive to do so.
I admit that I'm speculating about someone getting paid to do this but it is a logical conclusion to explain the actions. Then again sometimes it's just incompetence that can come from an entity that’s gotten too big. If they offered smart meters that were only accessible thru an interior interface and no broadcasting then I would definitely give that a look.
I am curious- how are people being "tricked" into using Smart meters? My utility (one of the largest in the country) simply told me they were going to roll them out and offered an "opt-out" if I wanted.
The incentive is increased efficiency which lowers cost for the utilities. Smart meters allow for flexible rate scheduling which empowers consumers to evaluate their usage and have greater insight and control over how they spend their energy $$. The new data is integrated into the billing system, the outage management system, the mobile workforce system...The energy grid is woefully outdated in this country and it needs the step up to the new reality of technology.
The energy grid is changing with inputs from natural gas, solar, wind etc...and with new models like micro-grids- the old infrastructure cannot keep up...having more accurate data allows for improved operational efficiency and reliability, enhanced customer experience and greater resource conservation.
Its estimated that 30% of all fresh water used for consumption is unaccounted for. Water companies are implementing smart meters to help rectify that...
The health risks of Smart meters is a myth....security? Yes, there is concern over this- but more on the aggregate level with data injections effecting entire grids rather than individual meters being hacked...but the industry is attempting to address this.
I suppose you can always call your utility to complain about the health and security of your smart meter on your cell phone...
I realize this does not qualify as "tricked" but is instead better classified as "threatened". One of my co-workers whose spouse is a lawyer (I admit I don't know what the spouse specializes in however the study of law in any specialty should help to better understand dealing with the law in general ) has gotten their "you have no choice" smart meter notice from one of the major power utilities. After some checking into it he told me that they have no choice in the matter. His spouse checked also and confirmed that unless the state forces the utility to allow an opt-out that the citizens have no choice even though they own their homes. The power of lobbying; a completely legalized form or bribery. I would find it hard to believe that in this day and age anyone, even the "debunkers" would see the whole lobbying industry as anything but legalized pay-offs.I am curious- how are people being "tricked" into using Smart meters? My utility (one of the largest in the country) simply told me they were going to roll them out and offered an "opt-out" if I wanted.
The incentive is increased efficiency which lowers cost for the utilities. Smart meters allow for flexible rate scheduling which empowers consumers to evaluate their usage and have greater insight and control over how they spend their energy $$. The new data is integrated into the billing system, the outage management system, the mobile workforce system...The energy grid is woefully outdated in this country and it needs the step up to the new reality of technology.
The energy grid is changing with inputs from natural gas, solar, wind etc...and with new models like micro-grids- the old infrastructure cannot keep up...having more accurate data allows for improved operational efficiency and reliability, enhanced customer experience and greater resource conservation.
Its estimated that 30% of all fresh water used for consumption is unaccounted for. Water companies are implementing smart meters to help rectify that...
The health risks of Smart meters is a myth....security? Yes, there is concern over this- but more on the aggregate level with data injections effecting entire grids rather than individual meters being hacked...but the industry is attempting to address this.
I suppose you can always call your utility to complain about the health and security of your smart meter on your cell phone...
BTW - I was wrong about their not having a choice. They can choose to have their power turned off as was promised by the utility if they should in any way prevent the service technician from installing the smart meter. So much for the old sayinging "The customer is always right". It would be one thing if the product in question were not a necessity like water and food. While you could argue that man/woman kind can live without power I believe we would all still agree that power should be considered a need and that so long as someone pays for it the power company should not be able to deny the customer service.
Can you post the notice they received or at the very least give the name of the utility, state?
Smart meters sound like a good idea . They are however part of Agenda 21 sustainable development . It would be smart to not have 1 installed . Smart meters are dumb .
AFAIK power meters are almost universally the property of the power supplier whether that be gas or electricity - I know my ones are.
therefore, yeah - if they need to do something to their meter or change it you have to give them access, and if you do not like the meter they want to use your only option is not to use them as a supplier, and if all your possible alternative suppliers also use smartmeters then you are either SOOL or off the grid.
TCSW - what is actually dumb about sustainable development and smart meters??
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction." -Pascal
"It is very important not to mistake hemlock for parsley; but not at all so to believe or not in God" - Diderot
Nothing if you like being treated as a collective soceity . Its about FREEDOM . UN mandates dont really impress me much . But thats just me
society is collective - by definition. Using up hte worlds resources, or not doing so, will affect everyone - there is no escaping that our actions affect each other.
so, again, what is i that is wrong with sustainability - because if there is actually something wrong with it then I see no reason why "freedom" makes any difference to that.
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction." -Pascal
"It is very important not to mistake hemlock for parsley; but not at all so to believe or not in God" - Diderot
Ant and bee colonies are a collective .
What about each individual's freedom, and all the other critters we share this planet of finite resources with, what of the freedom to drink clean water, breath fresh air and eat healthy food? Just ignore the extensive system of roads and bridges, law enforcement and fire protection services that society collectively relies on to ensure safety and yes, even freedom for each individual.Nothing if you like being treated as a collective soceity . Its about FREEDOM . UN mandates dont really impress me much . But thats just me.
The Ayn Rand version of "freedom" doesn't really impress me much, but that's just me.
"Just ignore the extensive system of roads and bridges, law enforcement and fire protection services that society collectively relies on to ensure safety " Just ignore the fact that hours that we work and are taxed for provide all those services and jobs for the fire fighters and police ect . Sustainable development Agenda 21 is Scam . United Nations bullcrap redistribution of wealth . World Wide Socialism . No thanks. Ill take my individual freedom .
1/ yes tax pays for a lot of infrastructure - and without a society you would not have them
2/ why is Agenda 21 a scam? Just above you said that sustainable development was reasonable.
3/ What UN "bullcrap" on redistribution of wealth?
4/ Your freedom is actually best ensured by a well run society with reasonable rules, the ability to enforce them, and a willingness to make some sacrifices to that end. without that you do not have freedom at all - you have poverty, starvation, fear and uncertainty.
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction." -Pascal
"It is very important not to mistake hemlock for parsley; but not at all so to believe or not in God" - Diderot
And so what?
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction." -Pascal
"It is very important not to mistake hemlock for parsley; but not at all so to believe or not in God" - Diderot
The idea of sustainability sounds good but its all a scam . No property rights . no rights whatsoever 1 giant police state .
Are you going to tell us why it is a scam, or just continue to make various accusations without backing them up with some evidence?
Or perhaps you could explain what ant and bee colonies have to do with the topic??
Last edited by MikeC; August 13th, 2012 at 08:09 PM.
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction." -Pascal
"It is very important not to mistake hemlock for parsley; but not at all so to believe or not in God" - Diderot
you said we were a collective society . No I wont waste my time sharing all I know about Agenda 21 and the fight against it in the United States . You apparently worship government and trust them with your future . We have whats called in our area becuase they are afraid to use the term Seven50 . Progressive always change their identity . look it up
Thank you for sparing us your specious opinion.No I wont waste my time sharing all I know about Agenda 21 and the fight against it in the United States.
Why would they use the term Agenda21 in the first place? Long before Agenda21, most cities/counties/states have had economic, cultural and environmental development plans of some sort of which they're free to name them as they see fit. One of our local groups is called the Corvallis Sustainability Coalition, an organization I strongly support.We have whats called in our area becuase they are afraid to use the term Seven50.
Let's see what Seven50 is about:
What the heck is wrong with including anyone in the community who wants to participate in the betterment of their community?More than 500 residents, urban planners, business and civic leaders, elected officials, government leaders, and activists recently attended the first of a series of public summits to develop the “Seven50” plan, a 50-year blueprint to help ensure economic prosperity and the best-possible quality of life for the seven counties of Southeast Florida. About 100 additional people watched the event via a live webcast. Registration had been closed early for the over-booked event in Delray Beach, Fla.
[..]
Attendees discussed a variety of areas that they believe need attention and improvement, including: mass transit; environmental stewardship; water supply; business diversity, and economic resilience. They shared visions of a more pedestrian-friendly super-region that balances the need to accommodate population growths while retaining the cultural integrity and character of local communities.
And you still haven't answered why sustainability is a scam. I'd really like to know because I've been successfully participating in sustainable permaculture practices for years.
Really? Since when? Got any evidence?Progressive always change their identity.
As for smart meters, they make sense if the US is going to upgrade the precarious infrastructure of the electrical grid with diverse renewable energy sources and more efficiency.
Not sure why you fear this Smart Grid technology for your privacy all the while tapping away on the internet...You are far more vulnerable here.
The fact is the current infrastructure is much more vulnerable to widespread failure or attack now than it would/will be under the new power technology.
Let's remember the first words in this thread...
There is now. ILLuminutti? I reckon!Not sure if there is a thread on Smart Meters and the hysteria surrounding them
Try www.itanimulli.com, can you break the code?
Once again....what's your point?
http://itanimullihoax.wordpress.com/
And I ask - what's your point?
My point is that there's a whole lot of things you could be getting upset about, but PC decides, after using his intellect, such as it is, and then using his mobile/cell and his internet ad nauseam, that he's going to make a stand over electricity usage and his right for privacy with regard to it. What are you trying to hide? When you charge your vibrator? In the immortal words of John McEnroe - You cannot be serious! That's my point.
What was yours again?
Last edited by lee h oswald; August 20th, 2012 at 03:58 PM.
Well gosh...you are the one that posted the site and said "can you break the code". I asked what your point was. You respond now with an insult to PC about his intelligence, personal views, and possibly his/her sexual habits?
I didn't have a point other than the fact that the link you posted was just a hoax that sucked in thousands of conspiracy theorists.
Why did you post the link....exactly what was the point of that...since I guess I need to spell it out for you.
I actually work very hard to protect my privacy on the internet. I have a lot of filters, cookie blockers, java turned off, flash settings restrict data being stored, cache files and history are deleted every time I quit my browser, etc.
I’m not sure I give up much on my cell phone either. I don’t have a GPS phone, so the most i’m giving up is who I call and for how long.
I rarely use my credit card. When I do, it’s trivial stuff like gas.
I think for me, the tie-breaker is my ability to control all those things above. I can opt out anytime I wish. It would be tremendously inconvenient, but I have the option. It’s all about choice.
Regarding the 10,000 square foot home, I’m not sure how else I can rephrase my thoughts without moving off point.
I consider privacy to be a freedom. I have the right to privacy. In this way, mandatory smart meters do curtail my freedom.
How come you didn’t address the whole "Freedom to waste energy" phraseology? Do you agree the phrase is a false choice as it inaccurately equates freedom with waste?
"Freedom to waste energy" is a very clever twist on words. It feels like propaganda. Correction, it is propaganda. It does a great job of painting individual freedom of choice as a bad thing, something requiring control. Is that not what it implies?
I can't think of the exact logical fallacy this kind of phrasing represents, but it sets up a false choice. "Freedom to waste energy" registers with the brain as "Freedom = waste." On its face this appears to be a message in conflict with itself - like a scale out of balance - freedom is good, waste is bad, therefore one or the other must be compromised or eliminated from the equation to resolve the perceived conflict of terms. As it pertains to our discussion here, do you really think freedom = waste? I'm not being rhetorical.
Same idea as your phrase, but applied to reality:
- I'm cooking dinner with my girlfriend. I pass her the knife. I am giving her the freedom to stab me! *GASP!*
- My neighbor has the freedom to kill me.
- My dog has the freedom to bite me.
- I walk into Walmart, i am free to rob the place.
- Birds are free to crap on my head.
- My contractor is free to rip me off.
- The bus driver is free to run me over.
There is a whole lot of freedom out there with potential for bad things. With your penchant for false choices i hate to imagine how you would resolve these freedoms.
I have more sane solutions.
No offense but if you think your filters etc...would protect you from a dedicated hack- you are mistaken. Moreover, every keystroke you make can be knowable by your ISP.
Did you really by the computer you are using with cash??
You only have a "right" to privacy as dictated by the contractual agreement you enter into any company that has access to your data.
Smart meters are not mandatory.
So, again- why the vehemence against detailed power data...data that YOU could use to "save energy"- and money- when the risk to your "privacy" is far less than that of all the other avenues for potential intrusion which you willfully participate ?
It seems you are being illogically obstinate.
It seems more like tired tea-party rhetoric rather than justified opposition.
As for the freedom to waste energy- That was YOUR reasoning - not mine. Its not a false choice according to you. You think people who live in 10,000 sq ft houses are wasting energy...and you want the same freedom to waste energy.
Last edited by SR1419; August 21st, 2012 at 08:04 AM.
Are you reading my responses? That's not what i think. If somebody wants to hack my computer, rob my house, steal my car, those are crimes - the illegally taking of something from me. I'm talking about what i voluntary give up - which is as little as possible.
-----------------------
Any voluntary contractual agreement with any company (cell phone, cable tv, gym membership) means i can opt out. I have the choice. Choice is key. Choice is good, mandatory is bad.
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Are you reading my responses?
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Are you reading my responses? I don't oppose detailed data. I oppose who has access to the detailed data.
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How so? You haven't answered many (if any) of my counterpoints, you won't allow your ideas to be questioned in any meaningful depth and i'm having to repeat myself because you don't read my responses. Predictably, the conversation hits a dead end. Your solution? Declare ME obstinate. Whatever.
You want to play tennis if the only person serving the ball is you. When the other player asks to serve, he's being illogically obstinate. 40-love.-----------------------
No. That was YOUR phrase YOU applied to YOUR interpretation of my reasoning which YOU then put back on me as a question to clarify MY position. When i asked you to clarify your choice of words you went silent. Again.
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Are you reading my responses?
I am sure you are a well meaning fellow but you are making this more complicated than it has to be.
There are 2 issues-
1. Smart meters are an invasion of your privacy. I can understand that this is a concern but it just seems misguided considering all the "opt-ins" of privacy drains that you do participate. Having filters on your computer does not prevent your ISP from knowing every keystroke you make. I mentioned hacking because you had mentioned fear of your meter data being used for nefarious purposes. Again, your privacy is much more exposed and you are much more vulnerable via the internet, cel phone, credit card...than any meter data....so, the vehemence with which you are opposed seems misguided at best.
So be it...
2. the freedom to waste energy.
This is not a false choice...this is the choice that you want to make- lets review your words:
Please clarify if I am wrong...but it seems like you are saying that people living in 10,000 sq ft homes and/or "people with money" are wasting energy...and that you want that same freedom. Am I misinterpreting it?
To me it seems like you want the freedom to waste energy if you so choose...
Its not a false choice- as long as you do not infringe on the rights of others you CAN waste energy...turn on all your appliances for days on end...turn on the AC and and Heat and see who wins...
A Smart meter doesn't stop you from doing that.
Not trying to get into a big debate, but I have to ask.....
PC....do you have a customer rewards card at any stores? I'd guess not.
Do you have digital cable? Any sort of on demand service by any means?
Have you ever had a prescription filled?
Any credit cards at all? Even debit cards?
The first three are so open to info it's crazy. Did you know any pharmacist (or authorized employee) can type in a name and find all drugs you have been taking? They are all on a network to prevent abuse. An acquaintance who was in school to be a pharmacist looked up several members of a band she liked. Found out all sorts of stuff.
The last one can be used for shopping habits...but not individual purchases
Gunguy45,
I hear what you're saying. For me, i'm okay with these things as long as i control the flow of my private information. All those things you mention, except the pharmacy thing, i can opt out of - no problem.
I'm not 100% comfortable with the pharmacy thing but there's nothing i can do, it's forced on me under the guise of a crime prevention mechanism. If i had a choice on the pharmacy thing, if i could check a box and opt out, i would choose to keep my information private.
Maybe a good analogy is whether to voluntarily allow the police to search your home when they don't have a warrant or probable cause. I would never voluntarily allow such a search. You could say, "but you drive down the road, they know who you are, they can run your tag anytime they want and get all this information on you, what's the big deal if they search your home if you don't have something to hide?" It's about my privacy and who controls it.
As long as i have the freedom of choice. Rewards cards, satellite tv, credit cards - i volunteered to have all of them (though i will soon be cancelling my staellite service), i understand what i'm giving up and i use each accordingly. It's like walking into Walmart with their 75+ cameras. I choose to enter their store with full knowledge i'm being recorded, but i have the choice to not go there to avoid being recorded.
Last edited by PCWilliams; August 25th, 2012 at 07:37 AM.
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