Smart Meters= Murder?

[SR1419]

What i put a premium on is my privacy.

I can understand that.

What I do not understand is why you are so vehement about your detailed power usage data being kept private all the while voluntarily "opting-in" to relinquish your privacy via the internet, cel phone and credit card usage. To me that data is much more private. So, your stand on the power data seems inconsistent.

My point is, how can we - as a nation, as individual activists - feign concern over energy conservation when we allow people to live in 10,000 square foot homes? We're either serious about how much "freedom people have to waste energy" or we're not. All I want is the same freedoms as those living in a 10,000 square foot home. That's all i'm saying.

You insinuate that people living in 10,000 square foot homes are wasting energy...and then say that all you want is the same "freedom".


A smart meter does not curtail your freedom.

[lee h oswald]

Let's remember the first words in this thread...

Not sure if there is a thread on Smart Meters and the hysteria surrounding them

There is now. ILLuminutti? I reckon!

Try www.itanimulli.com, can you break the code?

[Gunguy45]

Let's remember the first words in this thread...



There is now. ILLuminutti? I reckon!

Try www.itanimulli.com, can you break the code?

Once again....what's your point?

http://itanimullihoax.wordpress.com/

[lee h oswald]

Once again....what's your point?

http://itanimullihoax.wordpress.com/

And I ask - what's your point?

My point is that there's a whole lot of things you could be getting upset about, but PC decides, after using his intellect, such as it is, and then using his mobile/cell and his internet ad nauseam, that he's going to make a stand over electricity usage and his right for privacy with regard to it. What are you trying to hide? When you charge your vibrator? In the immortal words of John McEnroe - You cannot be serious! That's my point.

What was yours again?

[Gunguy45]

Well gosh...you are the one that posted the site and said "can you break the code". I asked what your point was. You respond now with an insult to PC about his intelligence, personal views, and possibly his/her sexual habits?

I didn't have a point other than the fact that the link you posted was just a hoax that sucked in thousands of conspiracy theorists.

Why did you post the link....exactly what was the point of that...since I guess I need to spell it out for you.

[PCWilliams]

I actually work very hard to protect my privacy on the internet. I have a lot of filters, cookie blockers, java turned off, flash settings restrict data being stored, cache files and history are deleted every time I quit my browser, etc.

I’m not sure I give up much on my cell phone either. I don’t have a GPS phone, so the most i’m giving up is who I call and for how long.

I rarely use my credit card. When I do, it’s trivial stuff like gas.

I think for me, the tie-breaker is my ability to control all those things above. I can opt out anytime I wish. It would be tremendously inconvenient, but I have the option. It’s all about choice.

Regarding the 10,000 square foot home, I’m not sure how else I can rephrase my thoughts without moving off point.

I consider privacy to be a freedom. I have the right to privacy. In this way, mandatory smart meters do curtail my freedom.

How come you didn’t address the whole "Freedom to waste energy" phraseology? Do you agree the phrase is a false choice as it inaccurately equates freedom with waste?

"Freedom to waste energy" is a very clever twist on words. It feels like propaganda. Correction, it is propaganda. It does a great job of painting individual freedom of choice as a bad thing, something requiring control. Is that not what it implies?

I can't think of the exact logical fallacy this kind of phrasing represents, but it sets up a false choice. "Freedom to waste energy" registers with the brain as "Freedom = waste." On its face this appears to be a message in conflict with itself - like a scale out of balance - freedom is good, waste is bad, therefore one or the other must be compromised or eliminated from the equation to resolve the perceived conflict of terms. As it pertains to our discussion here, do you really think freedom = waste? I'm not being rhetorical.

Same idea as your phrase, but applied to reality:

• I'm cooking dinner with my girlfriend. I pass her the knife. I am giving her the freedom to stab me! *GASP!*
• My neighbor has the freedom to kill me.
• My dog has the freedom to bite me.
• I walk into Walmart, i am free to rob the place.
• Birds are free to crap on my head.
• My contractor is free to rip me off.
• The bus driver is free to run me over.

There is a whole lot of freedom out there with potential for bad things. With your penchant for false choices i hate to imagine how you would resolve these freedoms.

I have more sane solutions.

[SR1419]

I actually work very hard to protect my privacy on the internet. I have a lot of filters, cookie blockers, java turned off, flash settings restrict data being stored, cache files and history are deleted every time I quit my browser, etc.

I’m not sure I give up much on my cell phone either. I don’t have a GPS phone, so the most i’m giving up is who I call and for how long.

I rarely use my credit card. When I do, it’s trivial stuff like gas.

I think for me, the tie-breaker is my ability to control all those things above. I can opt out anytime I wish. It would be tremendously inconvenient, but I have the option. It’s all about choice.

Regarding the 10,000 square foot home, I’m not sure how else I can rephrase my thoughts without moving off point.

I consider privacy to be a freedom. I have the right to privacy. In this way, mandatory smart meters do curtail my freedom.

How come you didn’t address the whole "Freedom to waste energy" phraseology? Do you agree the phrase is a false choice as it inaccurately equates freedom with waste?

No offense but if you think your filters etc...would protect you from a dedicated hack- you are mistaken. Moreover, every keystroke you make can be knowable by your ISP.

Did you really by the computer you are using with cash??

You only have a "right" to privacy as dictated by the contractual agreement you enter into any company that has access to your data.

Smart meters are not mandatory.

So, again- why the vehemence against detailed power data...data that YOU could use to "save energy"- and money- when the risk to your "privacy" is far less than that of all the other avenues for potential intrusion which you willfully participate ?

It seems you are being illogically obstinate.

It seems more like tired tea-party rhetoric rather than justified opposition.

As for the freedom to waste energy- That was YOUR reasoning - not mine. Its not a false choice according to you. You think people who live in 10,000 sq ft houses are wasting energy...and you want the same freedom to waste energy.

[PCWilliams]

No offense but if you think your filters etc...would protect you from a dedicated hack- you are mistaken.

Are you reading my responses? That's not what i think. If somebody wants to hack my computer, rob my house, steal my car, those are crimes - the illegally taking of something from me. I'm talking about what i voluntary give up - which is as little as possible.

-----------------------

You only have a "right" to privacy as dictated by the contractual agreement you enter into any company that has access to your data.

Any voluntary contractual agreement with any company (cell phone, cable tv, gym membership) means i can opt out. I have the choice. Choice is key. Choice is good, mandatory is bad.

-----------------------

Smart meters are not mandatory.

Are you reading my responses?

As long as it's voluntary i don't have a problem with it. It's if/when they try to make it mandatory i will engage my lawyers.

If the above examples are mandates i'm opposed. If the above are voluntary i'm not opposed.
[…]
Again, it comes down to mandatory versus voluntary.

-----------------------

So, again- why the vehemence against detailed power data...?

Are you reading my responses? I don't oppose detailed data. I oppose who has access to the detailed data.

… if the electric company offered to install such a device for me to self-monitor my usage, i would sign up. If they want to install such an item for THEM to monitor me, no deal.

-----------------------

It seems you are being illogically obstinate.

How so? You haven't answered many (if any) of my counterpoints, you won't allow your ideas to be questioned in any meaningful depth and i'm having to repeat myself because you don't read my responses. Predictably, the conversation hits a dead end. Your solution? Declare ME obstinate. Whatever.

You want to play tennis if the only person serving the ball is you. When the other player asks to serve, he's being illogically obstinate. 40-love.

-----------------------

As for the freedom to waste energy- That was YOUR reasoning - not mine.

No. That was YOUR phrase YOU applied to YOUR interpretation of my reasoning which YOU then put back on me as a question to clarify MY position. When i asked you to clarify your choice of words you went silent. Again.

-----------------------

Its not a false choice according to you.

Are you reading my responses?

"Freedom to waste energy" is a very clever twist on words. It feels like propaganda. Correction, it is propaganda.
[…]
I can't think of the exact logical fallacy this kind of phrasing represents, but it sets up a false choice.

[SR1419]

I am sure you are a well meaning fellow but you are making this more complicated than it has to be.

There are 2 issues-

1. Smart meters are an invasion of your privacy. I can understand that this is a concern but it just seems misguided considering all the "opt-ins" of privacy drains that you do participate. Having filters on your computer does not prevent your ISP from knowing every keystroke you make. I mentioned hacking because you had mentioned fear of your meter data being used for nefarious purposes. Again, your privacy is much more exposed and you are much more vulnerable via the internet, cel phone, credit card...than any meter data....so, the vehemence with which you are opposed seems misguided at best.

So be it...

2. the freedom to waste energy.


This is not a false choice...this is the choice that you want to make- lets review your words:

I find it hypocritical to cry about energy conservation while allowing such waste by those with money.

My point is, how can we - as a nation, as individual activists - feign concern over energy conservation when we allow people to live in 10,000 square foot homes? We're either serious about how much "freedom people have to waste energy" or we're not. All I want is the same freedoms as those living in a 10,000 square foot home. That's all i'm saying.

Please clarify if I am wrong...but it seems like you are saying that people living in 10,000 sq ft homes and/or "people with money" are wasting energy...and that you want that same freedom. Am I misinterpreting it?

To me it seems like you want the freedom to waste energy if you so choose...

Its not a false choice- as long as you do not infringe on the rights of others you CAN waste energy...turn on all your appliances for days on end...turn on the AC and and Heat and see who wins...

A Smart meter doesn't stop you from doing that.

[Gunguy45]

Not trying to get into a big debate, but I have to ask.....

PC....do you have a customer rewards card at any stores? I'd guess not.

Do you have digital cable? Any sort of on demand service by any means?

Have you ever had a prescription filled?

Any credit cards at all? Even debit cards?


The first three are so open to info it's crazy. Did you know any pharmacist (or authorized employee) can type in a name and find all drugs you have been taking? They are all on a network to prevent abuse. An acquaintance who was in school to be a pharmacist looked up several members of a band she liked. Found out all sorts of stuff.

The last one can be used for shopping habits...but not individual purchases

[PCWilliams]

I am sure you are a well meaning fellow but you are making this more complicated than it has to be.

There are 2 issues-

Actually, it's not complicated at all. I summarized my overall thought on this in my first post in this thread [emphasis mine]:

The best reason to refuse the SMART METER is so as to not open up your homes power to outside influence regardless of where it comes from be it the utility or someone who's hacked the wireless on it. Kudos to that poster for saying NO to the dumb meter.

Here! Here!

I agree. My issue with the smart meters is not all this hysteria about health issues. For me it's about privacy. I don't want anybody or anything monitoring my electrical use in such detail. I pay for it, it's nobody's business how and when i use my electricity. Not to mention, if the information is not protected adequately, couldn't a nefarious minded person piece together when you go to work, when you sleep, etc.?

There is also the issue (is it fact or fiction?) of these meters eventually receiving instructions to alter your usage during peak hours. Not going to happen. In my book this would be approaching soviet-style government controls.

If i pay for it, i get to use it as i see fit.

[...]

1. Smart meters are an invasion of your privacy. I can understand that this is a concern but it just seems misguided considering all the "opt-ins" of privacy drains that you do participate. Having filters on your computer does not prevent your ISP from knowing every keystroke you make. I mentioned hacking because you had mentioned fear of your meter data being used for nefarious purposes. Again, your privacy is much more exposed and you are much more vulnerable via the internet, cel phone, credit card...than any meter data....so, the vehemence with which you are opposed seems misguided at best.

As long as it's voluntary i don't have a problem with it. It's if/when they try to make it mandatory i will engage my lawyers.

I'm not understanding why the word "voluntary" slips past you. Voluntary; as in, the ability to opt out. Go through your list of examples again and ask, "Can PCWilliams opt out of this?" You'll see a pattern.

----------------------------

2. the freedom to waste energy.

This is not a false choice...this is the choice that you want to make- lets review your words:

I find it hypocritical to cry about energy conservation while allowing such waste by those with money.

The original post you partially quoted from is 746 words long. You cherry picked 17 words out of the original 746 word message. As a skeptic, this is an automatic read flag. Why not just quote one sentence at the end of War And Peace to make a point?

Why did you even quote the sentence? You should have just quoted this:

... waste ...

There you go. See? Much easier.

My use of the word "waste" was in direct response to your attempts at reframing the issue from my original concern of privacy to one about waste. [See: here and here as just two very early examples] My concern is privacy, you wanted to argue it from the perspective of waste. No problem. If you wanted to make this an issue about weight i'll oblige and try discussing it as an issue about weight. But you chose to frame this as an issue about waste, so i said to myself, "fine, cool, i'll address it from the perspective of waste."

So, by responding to your privacy-versus-waste reframing i used the word "waste" in an analogy to show why it's not an issue of waste and now you want to reframe "waste" as my idea. Got it.

With a full understanding i will be misquoted again on the next page in this thread for using the word "waste" when my prime concern is really "privacy", here is a simpler analogy from the perspective of waste: My neighbor uses $2,000/mo in electricity. I use $200/mo in electricity. If the only issue is waste, who should have their usage audited first? Me or my neighbor? Please don't add, assume or factor in any variables not explicitly mentioned in my example. If you can't answer the question based on the information provided, please ask for the additional information you need to provide an answer.

----------------------------

2. the freedom to waste energy.


This is not a false choice...

Only because i have some time at the moment, i'm going to regurgitate this point once more in the hopes of putting it to rest.

For starters, the phrase "freedom to waste energy" ...

That was YOUR phrase YOU applied to YOUR interpretation of my reasoning which YOU then put back on me as a question to clarify MY position.

You have never addressed YOUR choice of words and their implications except to keep blaming YOUR choice of words on me. This is akin to you saying to a woman, "Your face can stop a clock" in lieu of saying "When i look at you, time stands still." There is a legitimate question regarding your choice of words but you would simply blame the woman for your words.

Anyway, as i said in this message, "I can't think of the exact logical fallacy this kind of phrasing represents," but my best guess was/is, it represents a false choice of some kind or, at a minimum, it looks to me like soviet-style propaganda language (I can't wait to see what you make of my use of the word "soviet"! WooHoo!!!). The soviets used this kind of false choice logic all the time (still do):

• "18,000 murders a year in the United States. This, the price of freedom! Blech!"
• "X% of people living in poverty! This, the price of freedom! Blech!"

As if, "freedom = these bad things". It's the oldest form of propaganda.

Your phrasing sets up the same (il)logic equation: "freedom = waste".

It's a false choice because, if "freedom = waste", then "(NO freedom) = (NO waste)" must also be true. No?

I tried highlighting this false choice before to see if i could illuminate the conflict inherent in such logic, but (again) you ignored addressing my example:

Same idea as your phrase, but applied to reality:

• I'm cooking dinner with my girlfriend. I pass her the knife. I am giving her the freedom to stab me! *GASP!*
• My neighbor has the freedom to kill me.
• My dog has the freedom to bite me.
• I walk into Walmart, i am free to rob the place.
• Birds are free to crap on my head.
• My contractor is free to rip me off.
• The bus driver is free to run me over.

There is a whole lot of freedom out there with potential for bad things. With your penchant for false choices i hate to imagine how you would resolve these freedoms.

Game. Set. Match.

[SR1419]

Wow.

See..you really DID make it much more complicated than it had to be..

Match?

ummm...no.

As long as it's voluntary i don't have a problem with it.

First- you DO have a problem with Smart Meters even though they are voluntary as you would not opt-in. Even though you opt-in to much more privacy invading services.

So, illogical fail.

Second- No. the ability to waste is a personal choice. A personal choice that you want. That you are free does not mean you HAVE to waste...just that you COULD if you so choose. So, freedom doesn't "=" waste.

You clearly stated that since others - in your view- "wasted" that you wanted that same freedom. Freedom = choice.

Trying to turn it into a game of semantics is a straw-man misdirect.

another FAIL.

Nice try though.

[PCWilliams]

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah ...
I'm right, you're wrong ...
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah ...
Don't ask me questions ...
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah ...

I double checked. Yes, my last post actually DID post. I had to make sure because, once again, no response from you on any of my points. Nothing.

Okay, let's make it simple and see what happens:

My neighbor uses $2,000/mo in electricity. I use $200/mo in electricity. If the only issue is waste, who should have their usage audited first? Me or my neighbor?

[PCWilliams]

Not trying to get into a big debate, but I have to ask.....

PC....do you have a customer rewards card at any stores? I'd guess not.

Do you have digital cable? Any sort of on demand service by any means?

Have you ever had a prescription filled?

Any credit cards at all? Even debit cards?


The first three are so open to info it's crazy. Did you know any pharmacist (or authorized employee) can type in a name and find all drugs you have been taking? They are all on a network to prevent abuse. An acquaintance who was in school to be a pharmacist looked up several members of a band she liked. Found out all sorts of stuff.

The last one can be used for shopping habits...but not individual purchases

Gunguy45,

I hear what you're saying. For me, i'm okay with these things as long as i control the flow of my private information. All those things you mention, except the pharmacy thing, i can opt out of - no problem.

I'm not 100% comfortable with the pharmacy thing but there's nothing i can do, it's forced on me under the guise of a crime prevention mechanism. If i had a choice on the pharmacy thing, if i could check a box and opt out, i would choose to keep my information private.

Maybe a good analogy is whether to voluntarily allow the police to search your home when they don't have a warrant or probable cause. I would never voluntarily allow such a search. You could say, "but you drive down the road, they know who you are, they can run your tag anytime they want and get all this information on you, what's the big deal if they search your home if you don't have something to hide?" It's about my privacy and who controls it.

As long as i have the freedom of choice. Rewards cards, satellite tv, credit cards - i volunteered to have all of them (though i will soon be cancelling my staellite service), i understand what i'm giving up and i use each accordingly. It's like walking into Walmart with their 75+ cameras. I choose to enter their store with full knowledge i'm being recorded, but i have the choice to not go there to avoid being recorded.

[Gunguy45]

Gotcha...that's why I asked. So...may I ask how you feel about the requirements in the new healthcare plan? Assuming you are US of course. About the records being available to any authorized user I mean? I thought a similar system was great when I was in the Navy. No carrying records from place to place. Just show up and get seen.

EDIT Actually....you didn't answer. Do you have any of the rewards or customer cards? Debit/credit, etc.

Again...don't want a huge debate...your preferences are your business.

[SR1419]

PC-


I addressed your points specifically- even quoting your very words- Privacy? addressed.

Freedom = waste? addressed.

The idea is that you and your neighbor would both audit yourselves- cuz you know...you supposedly do not want to waste energy....and you have the freedom not to.

[Mick]

"I would greatly appreciate it if commenters would be polite to one another, and constructive in their criticism.

Any comments that contain insults, direct or implied, may be edited or removed.

This does not mean you should avoid telling people they are wrong, simply that you be polite about it, and that you explain why they are wrong. As a general rule of thumb, imagine you are talking to a new friend of a close relative, and be as polite as you would in that situation.


Thank you,

Mick"

[PCWilliams]

Gotcha...that's why I asked. So...may I ask how you feel about the requirements in the new healthcare plan? Assuming you are US of course. About the records being available to any authorized user I mean? I thought a similar system was great when I was in the Navy. No carrying records from place to place. Just show up and get seen.

EDIT Actually....you didn't answer. Do you have any of the rewards or customer cards? Debit/credit, etc.

Again...don't want a huge debate...your preferences are your business.

One credit card, that's it. I don't use it for more than the basics ... gas and food, run-of-the-mill stuff. If somebody can tell something about me because i buy a lot of Cheerios, more power to them.

I signed up for a customer card 4 years ago, but i don't think i've used it in 3 years. I didn't like the itemization of my purchases.

I despise the new healthcare system. The trick is going to be finding a doctor who will take cash and not plug your data into the system. I see too much potential for abuse when all your personal data is entered into a single database.

[PCWilliams]

PC-


I addressed your points specifically- even quoting your very words- Privacy? addressed.

Freedom = waste? addressed.

The idea is that you and your neighbor would both audit yourselves- cuz you know...you supposedly do not want to waste energy....and you have the freedom not to.

*whew* finally. Freedom and Choice. Exactly.

The end.