Cloud Seeding in Australia, Indium Oxide, and Ionization

[firepilot]

"So, like everyone else said, not "extremely toxic" as you originally claimed.

you are just scaremongering."

Did you not read the info that I provided? .... even a Journal article which is the level I usually deal with.

Did you just take your forum mates word on this?

And do you realize the key word is AMOUNT, as with anything for that matter. Its not like a incredibly miniscule amount, is the same as pouring some in a drink or eating it.

You are just coming up with whatever you can, and throwing it against the wall and hoping something will stick. Its obvious you do not know the slightest thing about this at all.

If you are as knowledgeable as you claim, then tell us about cloud seeding aircraft, amounts used, and how a typical cloud seeding flight would be done?

Are you still insisting that the agencies and companies that contract cloud seeding projects, are in some secret project?

[Mick]

Saucon, just look at the data, then explain how indium oxide is toxic. One does not need a medical background to see that the MSDS for table salt, talcum powder, and indium oxide are basically identical.

[Mick]

Gentlemen, please.

Nothing wrong with a good argument over what the facts are. We all get things wrong from time to time. I certainly do.

Saucon, I recommend you step back for a while, and think about it. We'll still be here tomorrow.

[firepilot]

No, it was not a slipup, it was more that you still have zero comprehension of the subject at hand. At first you asserted it was the ionosphere and then admitting that was wrong and that it was the stratosphere.

Well that is still wrong, cloud seeding is not done in the stratosphere either.

You act like cloud seeding is widespread and common, and its not. You are concerned with incredible miniscule amounts of cloud seeding particles, far far more concerned than you are about ground level pollutants. I would venture you think cloud seeding is a huge threat to public health, outstripping ground sources.

If you think there are these massive amounts of cloud seeding chemicals piling up in the outdoors and in our bodies, how about give us some proof.

[Saucon]

Saucon, just look at the data, then explain how indium oxide is toxic. One does not need a medical background to see that the MSDS for table salt, talcum powder, and indium oxide are basically identical.

The hilarious part is that you didn't know what indium was until I mentioned it. Now suddenly you are an expert. Am I correct?

[Saucon]

No, it was not a slipup, it was more that you still have zero comprehension of the subject at hand. At first you asserted it was the ionosphere and then admitting that was wrong and that it was the stratosphere.

Well that is still wrong, cloud seeding is not done in the stratosphere either.

You act like cloud seeding is widespread and common, and its not. You are concerned with incredible miniscule amounts of cloud seeding particles, far far more concerned than you are about ground level pollutants. I would venture you think cloud seeding is a huge threat to public health, outstripping ground sources.

If you think there are these massive amounts of cloud seeding chemicals piling up in the outdoors and in our bodies, how about give us some proof.

I have plenty of proof. Lets meet up... whats the go where are you? I can accommodate easlily. But lets get a few of you de-bunkers together." You will be fucked without google at your finger tips

[Saucon]

Actually Fuck you all...... lets finish this once and for all.

Please Mick sort out a date and place for all of us to meet and debate openly.

Saucon

PS don't forget to bring your qualifications with you. i will bring my nine years of university study with me! I expect the same.

[firepilot]

I have plenty of proof. Lets meet up... whats the go where are you? I can accommodate easlily. But lets get a few of you de-bunkers together." You will be fucked without google at your finger tips

All you seem to have so far is just profanity, mistakes and baseless assertions without proof.

You should find a way to connect firefighting operations too while you are at it. We can drop 9000 kilograms at a time too, with lots of chemicals involved too

Just the fact that you now think cloud seeding happens in the stratosphere, shows that once again, you do not understand at all. Care to show us how twin cessnas and twin engine pipers, beechcraft and single engine Piper Comanches can get that high?

What about the ground generators? And then what about super cooled water, and the glaciation process? What temperature range is desireable for cloud seeding into supercooled water, and why would one want silver iodide?

When would one use ejectable flares, as opposed to flares that burn for several minutes while attached to the plane?

[Saucon]

All you seem to have so far is just profanity, mistakes and baseless assertions without proof.

You should find a way to connect firefighting operations too while you are at it. We can drop 9000 kilograms at a time too, with lots of chemicals involved too

Interesting you say that when 'cloud seeding is not currectly used for

Just the fact that you now think cloud seeding happens in the stratosphere, shows that once again, you do not understand at all. Care to show us how twin cessnas and twin engine pipers, beechcraft and single engine Piper Comanches can get that high?

What about the ground generators? And then what about super cooled water, and the glaciation process? What temperature range is desirable for cloud seeding into supercooled water, and why would one want silver iodide?

When would one use ejectable flares, as opposed to flares that burn for several minutes while attached to the plane?

Haahhahaha this is helping my argument. Thank your very much.

[Mick]

Actually Fuck you all...... lets finish this once and for all.

Please Mick sort out a date and place for all of us to meet and debate openly.

Saucon

PS don't forget to bring your qualifications with you. i will bring my nine years of university study with me! I expect the same.

What will the debate topic be?

I can meet you in Los Angeles, thats about it though.

[MikeC]

Mick

I think you have no medical background and thus nothing worthy to say.... thanks for trying though.

And you haven't actually bothered to identify any medical background yourself either.

Elsewhere you said you had 9 years of university study - good for you - what qualifications did you get?

I had 12 years of university study.......

Do your 9 years of my 12 years make Indium any more or less soluble in water?

Of course they do not. Credentialism is a poor substitute for information and evidence.

The papers that have been quoted and referenced here were not done by you or me - so why do our qualifications matter?

If you have better understanding of them than me then you should be able to explain why my understanding is deficient...assuming it is.

But all you are doing now is calling people names and also a very common "believer" tactic of refusing to actually debate such facts as have been presented - i guess you think this will enable you to boast somewhere "I showed those idiots over at Metabunk - they weren't able to show me that I was wrong at all!"

Well...OK...if that is the case then congratulations - by refusing to provide any actual evidence, or comment on the validity of multiple sources that have been mentioned yes indeed you did avoid having to admit that you were wrong. Well done.

Doesn't make any difference to whether indium is going to bio-accumulate or is "extremely toxic" or not though.

[Jay Reynolds]

Here are some links to the Australia ground based cloud seeding (chemtrail) project.

http://maps.google.com.au/maps?hl=en...06536&t=h&z=15

http://maps.google.com.au/maps?hl=en...03268&t=h&z=16

http://maps.google.com.au/maps?q=wag...uth+Wales&z=16
.

Why are you being so secretive about these open facilities?
There is plenty of information about these, none supports your claims.
These are radio transmitters used by the Australian Ministry of Defence.
Some very ordinary HF transmitters and some VLF transmitters for submarines.
If you want to make claims that these are something else, you will have to provide some evidence.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_C...Harold_E._Holt

http://www.boeing.com.au/Redirect.do?Keyword=HEH

http://www.danbullard.com/dan/australia.html

http://www.worldofradio.com/dxld4044.txt

http://www.boeing.com.au/Redirect.do?Keyword=HFNOS

http://www.anao.gov.au/uploads/docum...Report_341.pdf

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...Z6X5WrXvBLWJCg

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...U_Lql112K7YOgA

[firepilot]

Haahhahaha this is helping my argument. Thank your very much.

Hmmm, well not a single question answered, and that somehow helps your argument? Lets just say that I can answer all of those, because unfortunately for you, I am one of the most experienced pilots in cloud seeding operations in the world, and have done it in 5 different countries, over a period of 12 years, in both winter and summer storms.

It was obvious from the start that you were just regurgititating hysteria and chemtrail nonsense, and did not have a working knowledge of any of it.

[Saucon]

Hmmm, well not a single question answered, and that somehow helps your argument? Lets just say that I can answer all of those, because unfortunately for you, I am one of the most experienced pilots in cloud seeding operations in the world, and have done it in 5 different countries, over a period of 12 years, in both winter and summer storms.

It was obvious from the start that you were just regurgititating hysteria and chemtrail nonsense, and did not have a working knowledge of any of it.

Yet you have no idea who Mr Ian Searle is.... hmmm you must be great at your job. If you are a pilot for cloud seeding then tell me exactly what are you spraying? What aircraft do you use? Where do/have you sprayed? How often? What BS do they feed you so you do this job. and How do you sleep at night? So defensive of your "cloud seeding" cause and so obvious why now. I save lives for a job and you destroy them.... good job mate!!!!

Please answer all these questions for me.

Let me guess you are an Israelite? LOL

[firepilot]

Yet you have no idea who Mr Ian Searle is.... hmmm you must be great at your job. If you are a pilot for cloud seeding then tell me exactly what are you spraying? What aircraft do you use? Where do/have you sprayed? How often? What BS do they feed you so you do this job. and How do you sleep at night? So defensive of your "cloud seeding" cause and so obvious why now. I save lives for a job and you destroy them.... good job mate!!!!

Please answer all these questions for me.

Let me guess you are an Israelite? LOL

Huh? You are throwing up the most nonsense stuff.
Silver Iodide via pyrotechnic flares, and in one project, it was hygroscopic salts. Aircraft I have flown : Cessna 340, Piper Cheyenne, King Air 90.

Mali, India, Saudi Arabia, Canada and the US

Projects were for rainfall augmentation, hail suppression or research purposes. Destroyed lives? Wow, you really are way out there. I did not realize small planes flying into weather and burning small amount of seeding flares, were killing people.

You really are far too deep into the rabbit hole to even have a rational conversation with. BTW, I do know Roelof, and am in a documentary with him.

[Jay Reynolds]

I see that Saucecon still doesn't answer questions or support his claims. He is using the tactic we've seen so many times before, of making vague claims and then backing off to something else when it turns out there isn't anything to support them, or simply ignoring when his claims get debunked.

He really should blame whomever he follows for setting him up, because they probably did the same to him, and he fell for it.

[Jay Reynolds]

Yet you have no idea who Mr Ian Searle isPlease answer all these questions for me.

Let me guess you are an Israelite? LOL

No, you metioned an Ian Searle it is up to you to say which one you speak of, and his relevance to anything, answer the question.

[PCWilliams]

I was told earlier that cloud seeding never happens from aircrafts.... as you can see from the info I provided I proved him wrong.

Out of curiosity, if not from an aircraft, how did this other person say cloud seeding was done?

[PCWilliams]

Actually Fuck you all...... lets finish this once and for all.

Please Mick sort out a date and place for all of us to meet and debate openly.

Saucon

PS don't forget to bring your qualifications with you. i will bring my nine years of university study with me! I expect the same.

And you would bring direct proof of chemtrails?

[Mick]

Saucon, if you can't be polite, then go back to YouTube. This is your final warning.

[Mick]

Saucon has been banned - unfortunately his argument degenerated into nasty anti-semitic ranting.

[Unregistered]

Saucon has been banned - unfortunately his argument degenerated into nasty anti-semitic ranting.

He sure showed you!!!

[Danny55]

"Saucon has been banned - unfortunately his argument degenerated into nasty anti-semitic ranting."

"He sure showed you!!!"


He/she only showed me that he/she couldn't show me anything.

[scombrid]

Saucon appears to be a fan of peekay.

http://www.youtube.com/user/saucon

I think that's the same saucon since he posted the following comment to a browncoat video yesterday:

"""LOL rubbish video. Cloud seeding and chemtrails = the exact same thing. The Australian taxpayers are paying for this rubbish to happen over our heads.
"""
He could have taken the opportunity to educate us. Oh well.

[firepilot]

Saucon appears to be a fan of peekay.

http://www.youtube.com/user/saucon

I think that's the same saucon since he posted the following comment to a browncoat video yesterday:

"""LOL rubbish video. Cloud seeding and chemtrails = the exact same thing. The Australian taxpayers are paying for this rubbish to happen over our heads.
"""
He could have taken the opportunity to educate us. Oh well.

I was suspecting that, since both of them are long on ranting, hysteria but short on facts.

[Jay Reynolds]

As with many of them, their object is not really to educate. They must feel inadequate in some way, so they come out as if they had solved a great mystery and posess special knowledge. Even though they wish to be acknowledged as having made a great discovery they are conflicted because telling others means they lose that special status they think they have, why share special status when doing so makes you less special?

At the same time, even telling us about what they are thinking entails the risk getting debunked if they define their claim more closely.

Sad, really.

[firepilot]

Out of curiosity, if not from an aircraft, how did this other person say cloud seeding was done?

Cloud seeding can be done without aircraft, and I would say thats the most common way it is done now in the US.

It relies on topography and upward flow of the air, to transport the seeding particles into the clouds. There are several seeding projects in Colorado, and I think all of them use ground based generators. PG&E in California uses a small number of twin Cessna aircraft, but numerous ground generators. Even in Idaho where a single plane is used in the winter, about a dozen ground generators are used. Now these are not used at the same time, which ones are used can depend on wind direction also.

The typical ground based silver iodide generator uses a propane tank, a burner, and a silver iodide tank. This can be turned on remotely when conditions are deemed right, and it makes a small invisible plume, from the silver iodide and propane burner.

[PCWilliams]

Cloud seeding can be done without aircraft, and I would say thats the most common way it is done now in the US.

It relies on topography and upward flow of the air, to transport the seeding particles into the clouds. There are several seeding projects in Colorado, and I think all of them use ground based generators. PG&E in California uses a small number of twin Cessna aircraft, but numerous ground generators. Even in Idaho where a single plane is used in the winter, about a dozen ground generators are used. Now these are not used at the same time, which ones are used can depend on wind direction also.

The typical ground based silver iodide generator uses a propane tank, a burner, and a silver iodide tank. This can be turned on remotely when conditions are deemed right, and it makes a small invisible plume, from the silver iodide and propane burner.

That is way cool, i had no idea. Great info. Thank you!

[firepilot]

That is way cool, i had no idea. Great info. Thank you!

Now this is just for wintertime seeding. I posed a question to Sauce-con, which of course he could not answer, in regards to the temperature range needed for seeding supercooled water via silver iodide. The answer is -5 to -10c, which in the winter, could very well at be ground elevation in the mountains where the ground based generators are. There were times in that the elevation of that desired temperature band in the clouds, was right there in the mountains where the generators were located, but of course we can not exactly go fly an airplane down into the clouds where the mountains are too.

Now in Saudi, they were experimenting with ground based seeding flares, but since the top of the escarpment was at 7000 ft above sea level and at the base of convective storms, that was about the same thing as base seeding via aircraft, which relies on the convective upward movement of air to carry those silver iodide particles up high to that temperature range.

[Mick]

It's interesting there are two ways of using propane (just to confuse people). With the ground based generators it's just burnt to vaporize the silver iodide. The propane itself plays no part in the seeding.

But there's also seeding with liquid propane. That uses an entirely different mechanism. The propane is not burnt, it's sprayed. The rapid evaporation of the propane causes cooling below -50C, which causes supercooled water to freeze.

http://www.wet-intl.com/LP_AgI.html

Content from external source:

Release of liquid propane as a gas from a LP dispenser chills the air to as cold as -100°C. This immediately condenses water vapor and then freezes it, effectively creating vast numbers of tiny ice crystals that act as seeding material. Because of the tremendous local chilling, LP release can generate ice crystals at temperatures as warm as -0.5°C, and enough crystals to produce significant precipitation (downwind) at -2°C. This means that there is a 4.5 to 6°C bigger temperature window of effectiveness for LP versus AgI. Since water vapor and therefore SLW increases with temperature, this warm temperature window will usually possess more of the SLW "fuel" necessary for more crystal growth and resultant precipitation. This LP technology is used to disperse cold fog at airports and is consistently successful.

I like how propane is used in two polar opposite techniques to the same end.

[firepilot]

I have off and on in cloud seeding for 10 year and did not realize that about ground seeding via LP gas created ice crystals.

Its the same general effect, its targeting super cooled water via ice crystals, or fake ice crystals (silver iodide). One thing I forgot to add regarding aircraft seeding compared to ground generator seeding, is that while it is still a relatively small amount of material being used, the aircraft will put out more more seeding material, since we covered a much bigger area with aircraft, while the generator is in a single location.

I do have maps of a winter project illustrating flight tracks and locations of ground generators, all of which are wind direction dependent as to which are used, but I am rather sure that is proprietary information.

[Mick]

And then there's hail cannons, that use propane in yet another way.



Propane is the swiss army knife of weather modification

[firepilot]

While the business of cloud seeding is unproven and theoretical, at least cloud seeding can work in theory and has in a lab environment. Hail Cannons have no empirical evidence of working at all.

[Mick]

Except for knocking things over:



It does actually create a cloud in this video, albeit rather short-lived.

[GregMc]

In Australia the cloud seeding is highly public and extensively documented.
Snowy hydro puts out films like these so I find it incredible that Saucon's Newcastle mates had apparently never heard of cloud seeding:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nv7D_UCHasQ
That vid shows the ground based burners that are easily seen by back country skiers and they help preserve snow cover dependant wildlife and eco systems.
The CSIRO have been very active in publicising their experiments over the decades so the suggestion that cloud seeding has somehow been deliberately kept a secret is intriguing.
It suggests once again the memory issue of people only paying attention to subjects they were interested in same way that some folks might also consider integral calculus and trigonometry some sort of secret because they don't remember being taught them.
Cloud seeding has generally been a subject brought up in primary school education in Australia. I learnt about it in the 1960s and early 70s and my daughters have done it in meteorology at primary school. So a a certain type of student will tend to ignore it as a "boring school" subject yet once swept up in a conspiracy belief will latch on to it as something that was deliberately kept secret from them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Kw5uTuhH60

[Danny55]

"consider integral calculus and trigonometry some sort of secret"

Trig is reasonably easy, but I'm sure that you have to be in a secret organisation to understand integral calculus. :-)

[MikeC]

Yeah I think it is called 1st or 2nd year of Uni maths...or maybe advanced Year 13 high school Calculus for savants....

Triple integrals are beautiful things

[scombrid]

And then there's hail cannons, that use propane in yet another way.



Propane is the swiss army knife of weather modification

Hah, I think swiping at the air with a Swiss Army Knife is probably more effective than "hail cannons". I like the old photos of hail cannon arrays here an there on the web.

[scombrid]

It suggests once again the memory issue of people only paying attention to subjects they were interested in same way that some folks might also consider integral calculus and trigonometry some sort of secret because they don't remember being taught them.

I stumbled onto a couple of youtube videos last week in which people were freaking about about "chemwebs". People are filming spider webs and claiming they were dumped by airplanes. They filmed spiny orb weavers (bloom here this time of year) as well as "cobwebs" common to wolf spiders as well as black and brown widows. There a thread here about chemwebs. I was going to start a thread on the chemwebs in the youtube section until I saw that chemwebs were already debunked on this forum. It was a new conspiracy to me but seeing the thread here I see that "chemwebs" have been in chemtrail lore for several years now. The youtube videos claims that the webs are new. Here in the south I mark the changing of the seasons with the type of webs I run though while jogging through woods in the early morning. But some people that apparently never paid attention to their surroundings before never noticed the web building behavior of spiders, caterpillars (tent caterpillars really freak them out). I reckon I'd have a nervous break down if I thought I was getting contaminated with chemwebs. We've got a colonial spider in Florida (probably common all along the deep south) that just about smothers trees in webs on the windward shore of our lakes when they mass up building webs to eat the chironomid blooms that occur throughout the warm season in our eutrophic lakes. By the fall trees are hanging low under the weight of the webs. I often wonder how people did not notice the spider webs or the contrails 20 years ago and then tell me that I'm brainwashed when I state that those things were there when I was a kid.

[Unregistered]

I've never heard something so much complete rubbish from someone so spectauclarly uninformed. Israeil does not supply the chmicals to Snowy Hydro, they don't seed from aircraft, only from the ground. Why don't you actually talk to someone rom Snowy Hydro and find out what is really going on?

Mick

Mate play fair, if I am to provide info (which I have/am) then you do the same. I was told earlier that cloud seeding never happens from aircrafts.... as you can see from the info I provided I proved him wrong.

Chem trails have been happening for over 40 years also. Remember that wonderful stuff called agent orange we sprayed 10% of Vietnam with? Cloud seeding was also used in that war... I believe the famous quote was something like, "Lets make mud not war." or something like that.

As for cloud seeding not being a secrete, ask 10 strangers about cloud seeding and see how many know what it is.

Interestingly enough in the past cloud seeding was performed with dry ice, or co2, or carbon dioxide. Now Australia is introducing a carbon tax as of next month.

Nothing to come out? Rubbish... cloud seeing initially dry ice as I said before. The Russian cloud seeding technology currently being used is a different technique which uses the chemicals people are calling "chem trails" and an electronic signal from a ground base. Please challenge me on this The west is 10 years behind Russia and China on this and are playing catch up.

Would you like me to provide you with government documents on the Russian Electrification of Ionosphere cloud seeding program? It is also a ground based project. Here are some links to the Australia ground based cloud seeding (chemtrail) project.

http://maps.google.com.au/maps?hl=en...06536&t=h&z=15

http://maps.google.com.au/maps?hl=en...03268&t=h&z=16

http://maps.google.com.au/maps?q=wag...uth+Wales&z=16


Remember the two names I said to look up before? Hmmm international scientist with the fingers on the trigger in remote ground bases.

Interestingly enough Israel is supplying the chemicals and communications for the "cloud seeing" program in Australia at a huge burden to our economy. Yet Israel is being sprayed as well.

Always follow the money..... Ruppert Murdoch, Malcolm Turnbull, Matt Handbury and Aron Ginus to name a few.

Cloud seeding just sounds so much nicer than chemtrails doesn't it?

PS I have a medical background and have simply worked out how to combat the inorganic materials so I don't really give a sh!t anymore how much the spray. Well I do but Im safe until it stops.