Is there a conspiracy to tax?

[SeriouslyDebatable]

Its not buildings and roads... ITS LIQUID CASH. Those buildings and roads you speak of make them money every year. It is a source of income. They dont need to sell them. They just rent them.

Why don't you AUDIT the CAFR? My claim was that they have a ton of left over money. My claim is correct. YOUR claim is that they need all that left over money for things. WELL PROVE IT!!!!

[Mick]

Why don't you AUDIT the CAFR? My claim was that they have a ton of left over money. My claim is correct. YOUR claim is that they need all that left over money for things. WELL PROVE IT!!!!

Well, no, YOUR claim is that they don't need the money for things. You are the one claiming something bad is happening here. So you are the one who should be proving that the money is not needed.

[SeriouslyDebatable]

I proved it. The money is general funds. It is unaccountable. It is not needed, it is EXTRA. This is bad because they raise taxes instead of using the left over money.

[SeriouslyDebatable]

Who's money is it? It is my god damn money. Can I choose what to do with my own money? No? And that is a good thing? Your money is needed Mick. Give it all to me. No? And if I TAKE it that won't be such a bad thing?

[MikeC]

I remember being told somewhere that the state workers at the governor's office were being paid 100 dollars for lunch every day. The governor asked where they were eating that cost them so much money on the tax payers dime. They could not answer. The governor then lowered their daily lunch money to $20. They were pissed. As soon as the new governor was elected, he raised their lunch money back to $100 a day.

got any evidence that it is actually true??

And this is the shit I am paying for that causes a budget deficit?

by your standards of proof yeah, you probably are.

In fact......I would liek to see the source before answering your question.

got any evidence that it is actually true??

[SeriouslyDebatable]

In fact......I would liek to see the source before answering your question.

I sent a request to the governors office about obtaining records of state employee meal allowances. I expect them to get back to me immediately about that... Please hold your breath Mike.

[SeriouslyDebatable]

I just thought of something. Where in the CAFR is the state employee meal allowances listed? (Big grin.. AHA!)

[SeriouslyDebatable]

Well it is settled then. My facts are right, your facts are wrong. This is not a contest, which is why I do not say that I won and you lose... I win nothing. The facts win. It is just that I am the person who brought these facts to the table. Perhaps that is why you do not want to agree that my facts are correct? Because they would in turn show that I have a better understanding of the facts than you do? Ego?

CAFR does not show employee meal allowances (and numerous other things).
Money is unaccounted for, therefore it is a conspiracy.

END OF THREAD. I made a valid point, nobody is able to contest it. Conspiracy to tax found to be accurate.

[scombrid]

I sent a request to the governors office about obtaining records of state employee meal allowances. I expect them to get back to me immediately about that... Please hold your breath Mike.

That information is public record here in Florida. You can look it up on the guberment website.

[scombrid]

Well it is settled then. My facts are right, your facts are wrong. This is not a contest, which is why I do not say that I won and you lose... I win nothing. The facts win. It is just that I am the person who brought these facts to the table. Perhaps that is why you do not want to agree that my facts are correct? Because they would in turn show that I have a better understanding of the facts than you do? Ego?

CAFR does not show employee meal allowances (and numerous other things).
Money is unaccounted for, therefore it is a conspiracy.

END OF THREAD. I made a valid point, nobody is able to contest it. Conspiracy to tax found to be accurate.

Wrong.


You stated that CAFR was secret. That was incorrect. CAFR for any government is public record and not hard to find.

You've now moved on to claiming that you can't find specific meal allowances in the CAFR. Seriously, you think that the government (which one? City of Deland? State of Florida? State of Indiana? Town of Smithfield? every government?) is secretly hiding revenue AND slipping extra cash to employees via extravagant meal reimbursement?

If you've got real evidence of corruption in every city/county/state that constitutes a global conspiracy to defraud tax payers you've fail to show it.

Oh, and meal allowances come out of specific agency budgets. Example. State of Florida defines what the allowable reimbursement rates are. The agency (FDLE, FDOT, etc....) budgets for the travel expenses of its employees and that cost will be included in the agency funding from the state budget. You want to know if the meal allowances are being abused you don't go looking in the CAFR. You audit the specific agency's books.

Florida rules on per diem and such:


http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/.../0112.061.html

[MikeC]

END OF THREAD. I made a valid point, nobody is able to contest it. Conspiracy to tax found to be accurate.

No wonder you were so keen to argue that silence = consent - it is your tactic to argue nonsense until everyone gives up in disgust and then claim you can't be disproved!!

In your case silence is more likely to equal exasperation, boredom, disbelief that you actually believe this nonsense, and so people cannot be bothered arguing against your ever changing fantasy conspiraqcies any more.

[vortexan]

I'm new to the CAFR subject... the debate has been riveting. Lotsa twists and turns.

Lets try to settle some things out about secrecy here:

The debate about CAFR being a 'secret' is a semantic one. If 'secret' is too harsh of a word for those trusting of government, obfuscation is an adequate replacement... which still implies a conscious effort. Personally I believe that lawyers and doctors use latin expressions for this very reason.

So a maxim that arises could be stated: "The more complicated a subject, the more an insider guild has the ability to prey upon the ignorance of all." So the incentive is there to needlessly complicate(obfuscation), especially since we're talking about coerced taxation at the end of a gun.
>>>>>
The debate then rests with the idea that the CAFR is needlessly complicated, on purpose.
I suppose you could read this article from: http://www.governing.com/topics/fina...s-useless.html
These guys admit that it is and they do the actual preparing. But, in fairness to deniers, they share the belief of a "Fiscal Cliff" and a common belief that municipalities are largely bankrupt from it's complexity. So if there is a "surplus" it's only on paper, and the roach motel investments can never be cashed; only dividends; a perpetual revenue stream into industry and outrageous banker's fees for simply moving money around.

-------------------------------------
I would posit that the thread should have been titled "Is there an agenda of government to launder tax money out of society and into industry and banks?" Stated that way, it becomes painfully obvious that yes there is. One needs only to investigate what govt does with the various funds they create, it gets invested in wall-street and globally. And when i say 'invested' I mean a Lobster Trap or Roach Motel investment.

Roach Motel
""A “Roach Motel”, originally a term used to describe a cockroach trap, has become a metaphor used by hedge fund managers to describe an investment that is too large in relation to the size of the company’s equity capital or the liquidity of the stock to allow the manager to exit without taking an unacceptable loss.""

debunk meh..

[vortexan]

I see he makes a specific claims the the government owns a majority stake in Microsoft, Time Warner, Disney, and Exxon, and over 70% of all the primary blue chip US corporations.

The problem is that's a lie. The LARGEST institutional shareholder in Microsoft is The Vanguard Group, who own just 4%, the largest individual is Bill Gates, who owns 5.6%

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/mh?s=MSFT+Major+Holders

I imagine he's got some weird way of justifying his claim.

I'm afraid this barely rises to the level of bunk. It's just well spoken nonsense.

------------------------
Government pensions do invest. What are the implications arising from the fact that their pension system is tied into mortgage debt? >>>Taxes used to shift an asset into a liability. Which is a point Walter Burien makes<<<< But thats my interpretation.
http://www.pionline.com/article/2012...bs-whole-loans

And before you claim victory on the whole Vanguard owns MS, Vanguard is an intermediary. If you figure out which clients Vanguard is servicing, I bet they handle alot of government money. Trouble is scrounging up Vanguard's client list, and I'm sure it's the same with many other hedge funds.

[vortexan]

No, I mean an actual example, with the two documents, and the figures pointed out, and the differences, and not in video form.

Come on, quit debating the meaning of words, and get down to what's actually happening.

Shows the stock ownership of CalSTERS. There's alot in there. What does government ownership of private companies imply? Conflict of interest?
http://www.calstrs.com/investments/p...io/usStock.asp

[vortexan]

anyone out there? has everyone left the thread?

[vortexan]

No wonder you were so keen to argue that silence = consent - it is your tactic to argue nonsense until everyone gives up in disgust and then claim you can't be disproved!!
In your [my] case, silence is more likely to equal exasperation, boredom, disbelief [astonished] that you actually believe this nonsense, and so people cannot be bothered arguing against your ever changing fantasy conspiracies any more.

Did seriouslydebatable beat this topic out of you? I hope that you'd comment on the info/connections I posted. I'll try to keep it cordial, but I'm curious about what it would take for a particular topic to cry out structural corruption.

I seek truth with a simple question, just what kind of system finances government, qui bono??