NorCal Dave
Senior Member.
The numbers vary but claims like this come from Whistleblower David Grusch:
1:07:30 in video of Congressional UAP hearings.
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQ7Dw-739VY&t=5s
And Michael Shellenberger is making similar claims here (paywalled, but I was able to screen shot the relevant bit):
https://public.substack.com/p/us-has-12-or-more-alien-space-craft
And repeats it here in an interview:
Source: https://twitter.com/MikeColangelo/status/1689732977020784641/mediaviewer
The first thing to note is that Grusch isn't necessarily saying all 40 people he talked to confirmed the existence of secret UFO programs, just that he interviewed 40 individuals over the course of 4 years, so presumably some of the 40 confirmed the secret programs. Similarly with Shellenberger's claim, his sources have "seen" or been "presented" with evidence of secret programs. We don't know who these sources are, but it need not be a large number. It may be only a few individuals that they have both spoken with.
Now I'm not saying we can discern the sources, but we can compile a list of people who fit the mold and/or have been making similar claims.
Right off the start, this is going to be more of a discussion thread, than any kind of Debunking as we still don’t know who any of these 1-40 people are. We have various people saying they have talked to various people that have confirmed any number of claims regarding the government and UFO/UAPs. Primarily, that the US government, and maybe others, know about the existence of off world craft, have captured or retrieved crashed off world craft, have captured or retrieved non-human biological entities from these craft, are using these craft to reverse engineer new technologies and is covering up these programs.
The various people claiming to have talked to those with direct or indirect knowledge of these programs often identify their sources as current or ex-military and/or current or ex-Intelligence Community members.
As none of these sources has been revealed, we are left to ignore it all, which I don’t think we can do, or we can engage in some reasoned speculation, which is more fun and we’ve already started doing it in other threads. While we don’t know who these sources are, we can at least start to compile some names of known people that fit a few categories related to the current news cycle:
At this point I’m not trying to debunk or question the various people’s beliefs and motivations. For this exercise I’m taking them at their word that they believe what they are saying unless painfully obvious otherwise.
This isn’t intended as a “told you so” type of thing if some of these names end up being sources, rather, it’s a collection of people that have been making very similar claims for years or decades and are or were in the military/IC or worked closely with them.
Maybe most important, these are just people I could easily find in a few hours that fit the profile of being potential sources or at least have the ability to tell some people what they want to hear. Who knows how many more there are we don’t know about.
Col. John B Alexander. He ran an informal “Invisible Collage” type thing in the ‘80s looking for black UFO programs and later hooked up with Bigelow and his National Institute for Discovery Science (NIDS). NIDS was Bigelow’s privately funded research group that worked mostly at Skinwalker Ranch (SKR). Bigelow would create a similar company called Bigelow Advanced AeroSpace Sciences (BAASS) that would be the prime contractor to the government funded AAWSAP.
Alexander thinks UFOs are real as well as other paranormal stuff but thought it likely that there were NO secret black programs about them in government:
Harold (Hal) E. Puthoff. Puthoff has a PhD in electrical engineering specializing in lasers. He’s most well known for experiments in ESP, remote viewing, psychokinesis and other Psy related subjects at the Stanford Research Institute (SRI) in the ‘70s as part of the CIA’s Project Stargate.
He also worked at or had his company EarthTech contract to both NIDS and it’s government paid for follow up at SWR, BAASS.
Puthoff partially endorsed the story of Project Zodiac, about crashed UFO retrievals:
Puthoff thought there were secret UFO projects:
And he would hint that he knew more than he could talk about (note Alexander):
Eric W. Davis. Davis has a PhD in astrophysics and works for Puthoff’s EarthTech International and through that has contracted to Bigelow’s NIDS and BAASS .
Davis is the likely author of The Wilson Memo, in which he claims Adml. Thomas Wilson told him about black UFO reverse engineering programs:
More detail on the memo is found here courtesy @LilWabbit:
Post # 27 The Congressional UAP Hearings Debrief | Metabunk
John Rameriz. Rameriz is, or claims to be an ex-CIA guy and that disclosure is coming soon, maybe 2027:
Angelia Johnston Schultz AKA Anjali. Schultz is a former USAF member and former employee at the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA). Interesting note, the DIA is where AAWSAP was run form. From her LinkedIn, which doesn’t copy and paste very well:
1993-1995 USAF
2004-2005 DIA, Lead Intelligence Officer
2005-2006 DIA, Intelligence Liaison Officer
2006-2009 BAE Systems for DIA, Lead Intelligence Analyst
(10) Experience | Anjali O. | LinkedIn
Shultz now believes that there is a secret UFO/Alien base buried in the Mojave desert of California. This is how she started her story on reddit, which is pretty standard:
Or that there is a world wide apocalypse coming in 2027, see Ramirez above for other 2027 happenings.
Our own @Charlie Wiser has an exhaustive review of Shutlz’s claims at the site above.
Major General Albert Stubblebine, USA. While not quite a UFO guy, as the head of Army Intelligence he helped get Project Stargate going, was involved with Puthoff, Uri Gehller and SRI. He wanted an army of soldiers that could become invisible at will and walk through walls, so that’s cool:
Luitenit Colonal James Channing, USA. Again, not exactly a UFO guy, but did want to integrate New Age and Psy into combat troops and became the head of the First Earth Battalion:
Garry Nolen. Nolen has a PhD in genetics and works at the Stanford University School of Medicine. He is also part of a non-profit called the SOL Foundation which recently hired David Grusch as COO. Nolen has studied various aspects of UFO, particularly meta-materials from supposedly crashed UFOs, possibly for the government:
Master Sargent Daniel Morris USAF Ret. Despite Morris’ claims to have top secret clearance that even presidents don’t have, Schellenberger’s Substack news site Public, had an opinion piece that quoted his as legitimate source:
https://public.substack.com/p/alleged-death-threats-against-ufo
Among Morris’ other claims:
Well, that’s a start and not a very exhaustive one. Many, though not all of the people listed could conceivably fit the criteria as a current or ex-Military, IC member or connected military/IC contractor that could be a source for secret UFO programs.
"Absolutely, based on interviewing over 40 witnesses over 4 years..."
1:07:30 in video of Congressional UAP hearings.
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQ7Dw-739VY&t=5s
And Michael Shellenberger is making similar claims here (paywalled, but I was able to screen shot the relevant bit):
https://public.substack.com/p/us-has-12-or-more-alien-space-craft
And repeats it here in an interview:
Source: https://twitter.com/MikeColangelo/status/1689732977020784641/mediaviewer
The first thing to note is that Grusch isn't necessarily saying all 40 people he talked to confirmed the existence of secret UFO programs, just that he interviewed 40 individuals over the course of 4 years, so presumably some of the 40 confirmed the secret programs. Similarly with Shellenberger's claim, his sources have "seen" or been "presented" with evidence of secret programs. We don't know who these sources are, but it need not be a large number. It may be only a few individuals that they have both spoken with.
Now I'm not saying we can discern the sources, but we can compile a list of people who fit the mold and/or have been making similar claims.
Right off the start, this is going to be more of a discussion thread, than any kind of Debunking as we still don’t know who any of these 1-40 people are. We have various people saying they have talked to various people that have confirmed any number of claims regarding the government and UFO/UAPs. Primarily, that the US government, and maybe others, know about the existence of off world craft, have captured or retrieved crashed off world craft, have captured or retrieved non-human biological entities from these craft, are using these craft to reverse engineer new technologies and is covering up these programs.
The various people claiming to have talked to those with direct or indirect knowledge of these programs often identify their sources as current or ex-military and/or current or ex-Intelligence Community members.
As none of these sources has been revealed, we are left to ignore it all, which I don’t think we can do, or we can engage in some reasoned speculation, which is more fun and we’ve already started doing it in other threads. While we don’t know who these sources are, we can at least start to compile some names of known people that fit a few categories related to the current news cycle:
- Current or Ex-military
- Current or Ex-Intel member
- Current or Ex-Military or Intel Contractor
- Has made claims of the existence of UFOs and aliens, UFO recovery programs, alien recovery programs, UFO reverse engineering programs.
- Claims of Government cover up of the above.
At this point I’m not trying to debunk or question the various people’s beliefs and motivations. For this exercise I’m taking them at their word that they believe what they are saying unless painfully obvious otherwise.
This isn’t intended as a “told you so” type of thing if some of these names end up being sources, rather, it’s a collection of people that have been making very similar claims for years or decades and are or were in the military/IC or worked closely with them.
Maybe most important, these are just people I could easily find in a few hours that fit the profile of being potential sources or at least have the ability to tell some people what they want to hear. Who knows how many more there are we don’t know about.
Col. John B Alexander. He ran an informal “Invisible Collage” type thing in the ‘80s looking for black UFO programs and later hooked up with Bigelow and his National Institute for Discovery Science (NIDS). NIDS was Bigelow’s privately funded research group that worked mostly at Skinwalker Ranch (SKR). Bigelow would create a similar company called Bigelow Advanced AeroSpace Sciences (BAASS) that would be the prime contractor to the government funded AAWSAP.
Alexander thinks UFOs are real as well as other paranormal stuff but thought it likely that there were NO secret black programs about them in government:
https://besacenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/183web-UPDATED.pdfHe is a former Pentagon insider and expert on UFOs and the potential use of remote viewing, psychokinesis, and other psychic skills in military operations. Dubbed by Luis Elizondo “a Godfather of everything weird and spooky at the Pentagon,” he is a colleague and friend of Davis from NIDS and Skinwalker Ranch days.
Responding to Davis´s revelations, Col. Alexander told the author:
"In short, I agree with Eric. We worked together when he was with NIDS. Think I referred him to Bob [Bigelow] to get hired. As we discussed [in an earlier interview with the author], the objects are not made by humans. That said, the ET hypothesis is too simple. Trying to raise the complexity issues with [the general public is well beyond their comprehension—so simply stating “not man-made” should meet the needs of most people."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_B._AlexanderIn 1985, Alexander founded the Advanced Theoretical Physics Project, an informal cadre of "government officials" (including "people from the Army, Navy, and Air Force, plus several from the defense aerospace industries and some members from the Intelligence Community")
…the group ultimately concluded that "there was no program" and that information collection among the military, Intelligence Community and other federal agencies "was pretty much ad hoc."[6] At the 2011 MUFON Symposium, Alexander’s speech on UFOs was jeered by attendees after he denied all government related conspiracies, and all claims of government “silencing” or harassment.[7]
Harold (Hal) E. Puthoff. Puthoff has a PhD in electrical engineering specializing in lasers. He’s most well known for experiments in ESP, remote viewing, psychokinesis and other Psy related subjects at the Stanford Research Institute (SRI) in the ‘70s as part of the CIA’s Project Stargate.
He also worked at or had his company EarthTech contract to both NIDS and it’s government paid for follow up at SWR, BAASS.
Puthoff partially endorsed the story of Project Zodiac, about crashed UFO retrievals:
https://ufos-scientificresearch.blogspot.com/2019/06/an-alleged-2001-national-institute-for.htmlEarthTech and former CIA scientist Hal Puthoff emails former CIA Life Sciences Division analyst Kit Green and his life partner Kristin B Zimmerman about a story published in a UFO magazine by a pseudonym “Greg Halifax” about a UAP crash retrieval personnel member pseudonym “Sedge Masters.”
The story refers to Masters having participated in a UAP crash retrievals group known as “Zodiac ,” of which Puthoff states “we have reason to believe the set of stories are only slightly fictionalized versions of a source’s experiences writing up records for the archives at WPAFB.” Puthoff asks Green if he’s ever heard of Zodiac, “which is supposed to be the true name,” not MJ-12 or Majestic 12.
Puthoff thought there were secret UFO projects:
https://archive.org/details/huntforzeropoint0000cook/page/114/mode/1upAuthor Nick Cook states Hal Puthoff (eventual AATIP scientist, see 25 March 2022) tells him the “evidence is pretty solid” that there are black budget aerospace programs that contravene white world understanding of the laws of physics. Puthoff states the most likely candidate for exotic propulsion is the perturbation of space-time by understanding the link between electromagnetism and gravity.
And he would hint that he knew more than he could talk about (note Alexander):
https://www.amazon.com/Forbidden-Science-Pacific-Heights-2000-2009/dp/1949501248Hal Puthoff admits to Jacques Vallee in a car that he wouldn’t tell Vallee everything about the secret black UFO program to protect one critical “deep throat” and in case Vallee is ever polygraphed. Puthoff states that the ATP Group in the 1980s, sponsored by BDM Corp. and led by Col John Alexander, was killed because “there was already another project.” Puthoff states it was “deeply black” and “somebody” didn’t want it exposed or duplicated.
Eric W. Davis. Davis has a PhD in astrophysics and works for Puthoff’s EarthTech International and through that has contracted to Bigelow’s NIDS and BAASS .
Davis is the likely author of The Wilson Memo, in which he claims Adml. Thomas Wilson told him about black UFO reverse engineering programs:
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6185702-Eric-Davis-meeting-with-Adm-WilsonEarthTech International employee Dr. Eric Davis, author of several AATIP products years later, allegedly meets with VADM Thomas R. Wilson in a car outside of EG&G Special Projects in Las Vegas. Davis transcribes the interaction where he was told the following:
VADM Wilson found records of a UAP reverse engineering program using technology “not of this Earth,” it was protected by a special agreement between the DOD Special Access Program Oversight Committee (SAPOC)’s Senior Review Group (SRG) and a large defense contractor he would not disclose.
More detail on the memo is found here courtesy @LilWabbit:
Post # 27 The Congressional UAP Hearings Debrief | Metabunk
John Rameriz. Rameriz is, or claims to be an ex-CIA guy and that disclosure is coming soon, maybe 2027:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/tech...ng-prepared-claims-ex-cia-agent/ar-AA1f6BWX?o"We're kind of preparing the U.S. population at least, and by extension the world population, to that reality," he said.
"That there is a presence here and that we need to explain this presence. Because if they show up and we continue to do what we did before in previous decades, there will be mass panic," he continued.
Ramirez claimed that these denials were gearing up for an ultimate reveal of UFOs and other alien life forms - and those revelations will come in 2027.
"In many ways I think the word got out within the government that they're showing up in 2027 and we better be prepared," he said.
He continued: "I've heard 2027 in kind of an official capacity I can't reveal. I would say people in the government are aware of something happening and that there is limited time, a few more years, to prepare the people."
Angelia Johnston Schultz AKA Anjali. Schultz is a former USAF member and former employee at the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA). Interesting note, the DIA is where AAWSAP was run form. From her LinkedIn, which doesn’t copy and paste very well:
1993-1995 USAF
2004-2005 DIA, Lead Intelligence Officer
2005-2006 DIA, Intelligence Liaison Officer
2006-2009 BAE Systems for DIA, Lead Intelligence Analyst
(10) Experience | Anjali O. | LinkedIn
Shultz now believes that there is a secret UFO/Alien base buried in the Mojave desert of California. This is how she started her story on reddit, which is pretty standard:
Anjali Timeline - Three-Dollar Kit (weebly.com)"I’ve held back from telling this experience for fear of career-shattering retribution and exposure. Surely that isn’t difficult to understand. But I read a comment in this sub last week about disclosure in which a guy said, here he (guy with classified info) is with this important information and he is the only one who gets to know it. And that struck me. I’ve been struggling with coming forward, but that comment resonated with me and helped to push me forward."
Or that there is a world wide apocalypse coming in 2027, see Ramirez above for other 2027 happenings.
Our own @Charlie Wiser has an exhaustive review of Shutlz’s claims at the site above.
Major General Albert Stubblebine, USA. While not quite a UFO guy, as the head of Army Intelligence he helped get Project Stargate going, was involved with Puthoff, Uri Gehller and SRI. He wanted an army of soldiers that could become invisible at will and walk through walls, so that’s cool:
Albert Stubblebine - WikipediaStubblebine became a proponent of psychic warfare and initiated a project within the U.S. Army Intelligence and Security Command (INSCOM), which he commanded from 1981 to 1984, to create "a breed of 'super soldier'" who would "have the ability to become invisible at will and to walk through walls". He attempted to walk through walls himself[3][4]—but failed, as he himself described in a 2004 interview.[5] (These activities feature prominently in Jon Ronson's 2004 book The Men Who Stare at Goats.[6][7]
Luitenit Colonal James Channing, USA. Again, not exactly a UFO guy, but did want to integrate New Age and Psy into combat troops and became the head of the First Earth Battalion:
Jim Channon - WikipediaHis concept was that a new generation of "warrior monks" would utilize paranormal abilities and countercultural principles to better prevail in future conflicts with the nation's adversaries. At a subsequent 1979 briefing at the Fort Knox officer's club, Channon presented his concepts to "commanders", who (he claims) immediately made him the first commander of the First Earth Battalion.[8]
Garry Nolen. Nolen has a PhD in genetics and works at the Stanford University School of Medicine. He is also part of a non-profit called the SOL Foundation which recently hired David Grusch as COO. Nolen has studied various aspects of UFO, particularly meta-materials from supposedly crashed UFOs, possibly for the government:
Since the formation of the Unidentified Aerial Phenomena Task Force in 2020, multiple publications have reported on Nolan's involvement with The Pentagon and the CIA investigating samples of materials supposedly ejected at purported sites of UFO sightings.[29][1]
Garry Nolan - WikipediaNolan appeared on Fox News' Tucker Carlson Tonight[30] show on August 1, 2022, during which he discussed his UAP related research in an hour long interview.
Nolan said that he gives the probability as "100 percent" that extraterrestrials have not only visited Earth but have been visiting earth for a long time. He also shared his speculation that what has visited earth are simply "emissaries" and possibly drones, but that they are regular occurrences and that some governments have retrieved artifacts from these extraterrestrial craft. This was shared during a SALT iConnections conference in Manhattan in May of 2023 during an interview with Alex Klokus titled "The Pentagon, Extraterrestrial Intelligence and Crashed UFOs".[31][32] As New York Times columnist Ezra Klein interviewed journalist and UFO author Leslie Kean in June 2023, Kean told Klein that Nolan "knows David Grusch very well and vouches for him".[33]
Master Sargent Daniel Morris USAF Ret. Despite Morris’ claims to have top secret clearance that even presidents don’t have, Schellenberger’s Substack news site Public, had an opinion piece that quoted his as legitimate source:
What’s more, there is at least one whistleblower who claims to have issued threats to UAP witnesses. Retired U.S. Air Force Master Sergeant, Daniel Morris, reported that the National Reconnaissance Office (NRO) recruited him after he served in Air Force Intelligence.
“I would go interview people who claimed they had seen something and try to convince them they hadn’t seen something or that they were hallucinating,” Morris said. “If that didn’t work, another team would come in and give all the threats, and threaten them and their family … And they would be in charge of discrediting them, making them look foolish … Now if that didn’t work, then there was another team that put an end to that problem, one way or another.”
https://public.substack.com/p/alleged-death-threats-against-ufo
Among Morris’ other claims:
https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/disclosure/briefing/disclosure12.htmI had a clearance 38 levels above top secret, which is cosmic top-secret -it is the top of all of those clearances. It is for UFOs, and aliens, etc. No president has had that level, has ever been cleared for that level. Eisenhower was the closest.
If you’re on that level, then there’s an organization worldwide called ACIO, that’s Alien Contact Intelligence Organization. If you pay your dues and you follow the rules, your government is allowed to benefit from that organization’s information.
There are other people who have been eliminated for what they know. One was a friend of mine, Phil Snyder, who worked out here in New Mexico building the tunnels- the biggest one that he was involved with was the Dulce underground facility.
No Congress ever voted on any of these black projects, and he believed the American people had a right to know what they were spending their money for and what we were capable of doing. And he started talking, so they got rid of him…
Well, that’s a start and not a very exhaustive one. Many, though not all of the people listed could conceivably fit the criteria as a current or ex-Military, IC member or connected military/IC contractor that could be a source for secret UFO programs.
