Diana W. Pasulka - aliens & religion & other dimensions (JRE podcast #2091)

[NorCal Dave]

Hello fellow 5-10 non-JRE consumer.

I'm an archeology/paleontology addict and so between lectures on YouTube, the algorithm will serve up a little JoeBro content with a heaping helping of G. Hancock.

The one and only time I unbeknownst clicked, my blood pressure spiked and the neighbors were treated to an expletive tirade at deafening decibels through the walls and out the windows.

Never again.

Besides just finding the show somewhat boring, the constant uncritical yacking with Hancock was deal breaker for me.

My son is an Anthro/BioArch professor and his wife is a field BioArch and researcher. I saw what schooling they went through and the in depth research that was required of them. Then along comes this hack who knows better than ALL the anthro/arch people and accuses them of being wrong, ignorant or engaged in a cover up about Atlantis. On top of that, after calling those same people part of a cover up or not as smart as he is, he goes to Joe to wine about how they won't take him and his ideas seriously. Meanwhile his kid is giving him a huge forum on Netflix.

No thanks Joe. However, I MAY put this one on in the background while out in the shop today, just to get an idea of where she's coming from.

 

[RTM]

I wonder if we’ll see a bit of a back lash against Rogan soon. In the last week I’ve seen a good few videos pop up on my youtube feed criticizing podcasts, the gist of some of them was that after a while they need to churn out content which results in people talking about things they’re not well versed in.
With the size of his show he would be first to get attention.
As said above he seemed to really lap up Hancock’s stuff, he had RFK on recently and RFK claimed the Spanish flu could have been the result of a vaccine. I only saw a small clip so I didn’t see if he pushed back a lot, but his first reaction seemed a bit too gullible.

 

[Mendel]

his first reaction seemed a bit too gullible.

From what I hear, that's his shtick, though—basically how he built his "one of us" audience. He could easily afford a staff that vets each of his guests in-depth beforehand. Maybe he even does? Appearing/being gullible is a conscious choice at this point. And that makes his [show's] peddling of misinformation a conscious choice as well.

 

[MonkeeSage]

It's very possible she is hearing from some of the same people involved in the Grusch case and AARO investigations.

It seems quite likely. She has mentioned she often talks to Jacques Vallee, and has been using pseudonymous UFO experiencer / belivers as sources in her books for several years (the main one being "Tyler D") the group of which she refers to as "The Invisibles." And more on the nose, she claims she was taken to an UFO crash site with Garry Nolan by "Tyler D" where they recovered meta-materials. It seems like she went from researching UFO phenomenon from a religious perspective to becoming a bit of a convert hanging around with some of the usual suspects.

Source: KONCRETE Podcast S1 E188 (around 14 minutes in):

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQhikls5Ye8&t=850s

 

[Haliate2854]

she claims she was taken to an UFO crash site with Garry Nolan by "Tyler D" where they recovered meta-materials. It seems like she went from researching UFO phenomenon from a religious perspective to becoming a bit of a convert hanging around with some of the usual suspects.

Hey I actually saw something on my recommends recently and I didn't remember it until I read this. I just checked and I found it, a video where Gary Nolan goes over his "metamaterials" or what Jesse Michels called "*REAL* UFO Crash Parts" (lol). These are those fragments, and I have timestamped this video where he shows them on camera.


Would you like to see the other metamaterials he has, the big pieces? Not so fast, punk!

THATS CLASSIFIED! He says he has more fragments but he cant show them because of national security. So whenever anybody speaks about metamaterials that the usual suspects have try to remember that this is what they look like.

 

[deirdre]

he had RFK on recently and RFK claimed the Spanish flu could have been the result of a vaccine. I only saw a small clip so I didn’t see if he pushed back a lot, but his first reaction seemed a bit too gullible.

i just watched it on Daily Motion ..(not linking because Rfk is so dangerously wrong about so many things!)

Joe had no reaction at all, he completely ignored it because he was seriously nailing rfk down on what RFK was trying to imply and looking up Fauchis paper on bacterial pneumonia being the cause of death in the spanish flu epidemic. Maybe youre misremembering.

This was actually one of the rare times Joe did a good job. He was actually sober and serious and no gullible hints at all in that segment.

unlike the other false stuff rfk said throughout the episode, i dont think this section was a big deal really as rfk was stammering and contradicting himself from one sentence to the next and saying outright he isnt sure what he is talking about

As joe tries to nail him down, RFK says "i shouldnt talk about this Joe, I dont remember enough about it" 1:54:50

RJK was trying to tie a bacterial meningitis vaccine "trial" with bacterial pneumonia, but its obvious he didnt even remember the Kansas military "trial" was meningitis.

And for Rogan anti-vax fans who may be reading this thread and missed RFK's contradictions and stammering and admissions of ignorance:

Article:

“The people generally would not have died from the bacterial infection if their lungs have not already been attacked by this virus,” Kissler explained. This secondary infection that follows “takes advantage of the damage that had been done by the virus.”

Finally, experts pointed out that evidence gathered over the decades since has conclusively proven that the 1918 pandemic was caused by an H1N1 virus. Further reading about the discovery and reconstruction of the H1N1 virus can be found here .

“The work done by Dr. Jeffrey Taubenberger and his team at NIH (National Institutes of Health) over the last several decades has conclusively proven that the 1918 pandemic was indeed caused by A/H1N1 influenza,” Alex Navarro, Assistant Director at the Center for the History of Medicine of the University of Michigan, told Reuters via email.

Source: https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL1N2M62BG/

edited to change a few "jfk" mistypes to RFK.

 

[NorCal Dave]

Hey I actually saw something on my recommends recently and I didn't remember it until I read this. I just checked and I found it, a video where Gary Nolan goes over his "metamaterials" or what Jesse Michels called "*REAL* UFO Crash Parts" (lol). These are those fragments, and I have timestamped this video where he shows them on camera.

I do remember hearing Pasulka taking about her trip to the desert with Nolan and others where "one" of the Roswell saucers crashed maybe? I'm wondering if these are the pieces Kirkpatrick mentioned being missile casings? Haven't had time to track it down.

These pieces:



I believe are supposedly from the Ubatuba UFO crash of 1957, at least in an article about Nolan testing the Ubatuba samples (again!) these photos accompanied the story. IF the material came from the Ubatuba area, there is no evidence of a UFO crash aside from an anonymous letter that accompanied the samples when they arrived on the desk of a newspaper columnist in Rio De Jairo. It's possible they are from a known crash of a DC3 in the area in 1957, but again there is no record of where these samples actually originated or a very good chain of custody once they appeared and got passed around.

I did a deep dive on Art's Parts and touched on Nolan's supposed Ubatuba samples in this thread:

https://www.metabunk.org/threads/meta-materials-from-ufos.12995/

And more on the nose, she claims she was taken to an UFO crash site with Garry Nolan by "Tyler D" where they recovered meta-materials. It seems like she went from researching UFO phenomenon from a religious perspective to becoming a bit of a convert hanging around with some of the usual suspects.

As noted, I have heard that story, probably on the Strange Arrivals podcast. And when Nolan talks about his "influences" it does include some of the usual:

You've probably heard of Jacques Vallée, Kit Green, Eric Davis and Colm Kelleher. All roads lead to them when it comes to UAP. I basically became friends with that whole group; they call it The Invisible College.

Content from External Source

https://www.vice.com/en/article/n7n...nalyzing-anomalous-materials-from-ufo-crashes

And you don't meet Davis and Kelleher without also meeting Hal Puthoff. So, as usual we have the Skinwalker Ranch cabal influencing Nolan and likely Pasulka. If we look at the thread about the congressional hearings we can go full circle and see the Christopher Melon claimed that he personally introduced and sent "UFO Whistleblowers" Lue Elizondo, Eric Davis and Hal Putoff to brief Kirkpatrick at AARO:

Specifically, his claim that: "As of the time of my departure, none, let me repeat, none of the conspiracy-minded 'whistleblowers' in the public eye had elected to come to AARO to provide their 'evidence' and statement for the record despite numerous invitations. "I’m baffled because, in an effort to assist his investigation, I introduced Dr. Kirkpatrick to the former Director of the AATIP program, Lue Elizondo, as well as Dr. Eric Davis and Dr. Hal Putoff. Each of these prominent voices associated with the AATIP program spent hours briefing Dr. Kirkpatrick in a classified setting. None have received any feedback

Content from External Source

Source below.

It's just the same small group, as Kirkpatrick has claimed and something many of us here have long suspected. They just keep repeating their stories to slightly different people and see what happens. It appears Kirkpatrick wasn't having any of it, while Pasulka is buying in.

https://www.metabunk.org/threads/da...ared-statement-and-ig-complaint.12989/page-14


Source: https://twitter.com/ChrisKMellon/status/1750294265597428216

 

[NorCal Dave]

Just an interesting find here. This is from the 1st chapter of the 2021 book, Wayward Sons: NICAP and the IC. It follows the rise and fall of NICAP, but in the intro the author mentions Pasulka and Nolan in reference to her book, American Cosmic:

He (Nolan) was also widely and confidently suspected to be a not so anonymously portrayed, starry eyed character in a Dr. Diana Walsh Pasulka nonfiction (sort of) book, American Cosmic.

The situation was questioned by your author, as was Nolan and Walsh Pasulka's lack of willingness to directly address their alleged involvement in reports of “security personnel” monitoring and editing her statements made on podcasts. Suffice it to say neither of the two had much to say about any of it, but I guess that's Disclosure for you. Transparency often seems to only be a good thing if it's applied to the actions of others. The sincerity of Walsh Pasulka's seemingly halfhearted effort to conceal the identities of primary characters in American Cosmic was questioned throughout segments of the UFO genre, as were the underlying motives.

Content from External Source

https://ufotrail.blogspot.com/

American Cosmic came out in February of 2019, and according to its Amazon blurb was the result of 6 years of research:



So, it would seem Pasulka has been involved with Nolan for quite a while. It's interesting to read the above blurb about how media has replaced religious authority and offers believers what they want regarding UFOs. She sounding like an anthropologist learning about a group that she isn't really part of and the blurb claims it's an "Ethnography". She is studying the believers.

Now contrast that with the blurb for her new book:



The book is about people communicating with unknown life-forms and it doesn't seem to be a study of those who believe this, rather it's about to happen.

 

[Haliate2854]

I do remember hearing Pasulka taking about her trip to the desert with Nolan and others where "one" of the Roswell saucers crashed maybe? I'm wondering if these are the pieces Kirkpatrick mentioned being missile casings? Haven't had time to track it down.

I have also wondered this, but right now we don't have enough "talk" to back that up, but I 100% believe it is the same fragments. You are correct, those fragments he showed were from the Ubatuba incident but I didn't know the date until you said it, good finding. Sean said in his interview that what somebody found was actually pieces of a missile case from the 50s, but I am not sure if we know enough to say these are the exact fragments being referred to, because as I said he also claims to have more fragments but they are a matter of "national security".
Also, thank you for your link to your metamaterials thread, appreciate it!

 

[NorCal Dave]

because as I said he also claims to have more fragments but they are a matter of "national security".

I still find it baffling that UFOlogist routinely fall for and continue to use this ploy. I'm watching the video you posted in #45 (linked below). It appears from the beginning that the host was a bit underwhelmed by what Nolan brought him last time around. So, Nolan invokes the overused UFOlogy cliche "But wait, there's more! But it's classified, so trust me bro." I'm going to put the video over on the Meta-materials thread as they talk about the Ubatuba samples, and it appears, some of Art's Parts.

However, for this thread one little thing did jump out at me in the video. I'm sure I'm not the only one that thinks Puthoff and Davis are 2 of the "connected" people that helped convince Pasulka that UFOs are real. Reading any of their ramblings shows a tendency for pseudo cloak and dagger skullduggery. Pasulka claims some of what she learned is from CIA people and in the video the host has to call Puthoff for something. Note how Puhtoff is labeled:



Not saying it's a smoking gun, but it sure fits. I would argue this label of "Former CIA" is a bit disingenuous and is made to look like Puthoff was some sort of former CIA operative or was directly employed by the CIA. I don't think this is true, it appears Puthoff was working for, or with the Stanford Research Institute (SRI) when they were contracted by the CIA to perform experiments for what would become Stargate Project:

In the 1970s and '80s Puthoff directed a program at SRI International to investigate paranormal abilities, collaborating with Russell Targ in a study of the purported psychic abilities of Uri Geller, Ingo Swann, Pat Price, Joseph McMoneagle and others, as part of what they called the Stargate Project. Both Puthoff and Targ became convinced Geller and Swann had genuine psychic powers,[11][12] however Geller had employed sleight of hand tricks.

Content from External Source

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_E._Puthoff

Project Stargate took what some, including Puthoff and Targ had been doing at SRI, and put it together. Note that SRI was a contractor (bold by me):

The Stargate Project was a secret U.S. Army unit established in 1978 at Fort Meade, Maryland, by the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) and SRI International (a California contractor) to investigate the potential for psychic phenomena in military and domestic intelligence applications.

Content from External Source

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stargate_Project

The original work on remote viewing and ultimately Uri Geller's spoon bending tricks at SRI were at least partially CIA funded:

In 1970 United States intelligence sources believed that the Soviet Union was spending 60 million roubles annually on "psychotronic" research. In response to claims that the Soviet program had produced results, the CIA initiated funding for a new program known as SCANATE ("scan by coordinate") in the same year.[11] Remote viewing research began in 1972 at the Stanford Research Institute (SRI) in Menlo Park, California.[11] Proponents (Russell Targ and Harold Puthoff) of the research said that a minimum accuracy rate of 65% required by the clients was often exceeded in the later experiments.

Content from External Source

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stargate_Project

By the time the US Army was creating Stargate, I think Puthoff and Targ were gone or in diminished roles (bold by me):

Physicists Russell Targ and Harold Puthoff began testing psychics for SRI in 1972, including one who would later become an international celebrity, Israeli Uri Geller. Their apparently successful results garnered interest within the U.S. Department of Defense. Ray Hyman, professor of psychology at the University of Oregon, was asked by Air Force psychologist Lt. Col. Austin W. Kibler (1930–2008) – then Director of Behavioral Research for ARPA – to go to SRI and investigate. He was to specifically evaluate Geller. Hyman's report to the government was that Geller was a "complete fraud" and as a consequence Targ and Puthoff lost their government contract to work further with him. The result was a publicity tour for Geller, Targ, and Puthoff to seek private funding for further research work on Geller.

Content from External Source

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stargate_Project

All that to say, Hal Puthoff was NOT a former CIA employee. He worked at SRI, a contractor to the US government, including the CIA. And his work at SRI was found sub-optimal and he eventually lost the gig.


Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzTZbSNsKV8&t=1291s

 

[Haliate2854]

It appears from the beginning that the host was a bit underwhelmed by what Nolan brought him last time around.

I had half a mind to remove the embed due to how obnoxiously colourful and clickbaity the thumbnail was but it didn't feel right to make people have to click out to watch it, its funny his attitude VS his thumbnail and title right? But make no mistake, that Jesse guy is fully on board for the ride. He has pretty special access to the usual suspects due to his channel size and attitude towards the topic, he does a lot of work with them and its pretty well produced.

However, for this thread one little thing did jump out at me in the video. I'm sure I'm not the only one that thinks Puthoff and Davis are 2 of the "connected" people that helped convince Pasulka that UFOs are real. Reading any of their ramblings shows a tendency for pseudo cloak and dagger skullduggery.

After listening to Diana for longer than I should of, I just think she is gullible. She presents herself as a scientific type lady but in actual fact shes deeply into metaphysical teachings and religious scriptures, and loves to find ways to connect religion to UFOs. If you don't believe me, look up-
"the Protocols of Extreme Creativity with Diana Pasulka" or allow me to do it for you.
You can thank Reddit for this. It is some kind of paid-for seminar by Diana and a friend of hers. I saw a reddit thread on rUFOs not long ago I remember, somebody took the course and made a post about it, I just tried to find it but it has been deleted due to being seen as a form of recruitment for a UFO religion HAHAHA.


Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/1au806s/the_protocols/

https://dwpasulka-courses.teachable.com/courses/
The comments are still there, and you can gleam a lot of information from the comments. If youre interested in knowing more, the comment section is pretty rich. The original post said that there were about "130" people in that class and they were all paying customers, I'm sorry but I don't know how much they paid. But don't be too upset over that, because I checked every archive site I could find and I found it! You can delete her post, but you CANNOT delete my dedication.
ARCHIVE OF POST

BUCKLE UP IM NOT KIDDING!

Hey all,
I'm taking Diana Pasulka and Simone Plante's class called "The Protocols of Creativity". We are through week 2 of 4 total weeks.
If you're in this subreddit Aliens, you are undoubtedly interested in this UFO/Alien phenomena that has been seen for thousands of years. If you haven't already, I would recommend reading Diana's book "American Cosmic" and then her new book "Encounters". She is also one of they key leaders in the new Sol Foundation. I won't get into all of her conclusions or findings, but in short, one of my big takeaways is that she believes our connection with UFO's, Aliens, NHI, ET, or whatever you want to call them, is more closely connected with our consciousness than just being a purely physical/external phenomena. And if you believe her Tyler D (Tim Taylor from NASA) stories, the secret space program believes the same, and has been attempting (and achieving) to harness these consciousness connections for decades.
Most of the class is a Q&A format, and the class has about 130 students. Lots of students have great questions in regards to the best way to do the protocols. Other questions are more nuanced after you have experience with the "creative signal". But to summarize, the overarching theme is, do whatever works best for you. While they may tell you to be sober, well rested, well hydrated, etc, if you find success with THC, psilocybin, etc, they say to feel free to do your thing... responsibly. While also stressing that being reliant upon external factors is not sustainable. The best way to find that creative connection is to do it naturally, and be able to control it with your own body.
I could go on and on. Feel free to ask questions I'll do my best to answer in the vein of Diana and Simone. Simone is very impressive.
Here is their slide from the first class on the protocols (synthesised from Tyler D, Simone, Diana, and others, such as Gary Nolan I assume)
The Protocols
They say these protocols have throughout history been more aligned with religious practices, but they don't think that religion is important for finding your connection. Simone has a strong connection with an intelligence, but personally she refuses to "name" it. She does intense weight lifting and multi-hour running to find her best flow state. She's also afraid to try psychedelics as she's worried that it might be too much for her due to her strong connection.
Simone believes that the better you get at achieving this state of mind, you can live within this state 24/7. It doesn't need to be something you need to turn on or off, but just a state you exist in all day and during sleep. At times it can be overwhelming for people and hard to operate rationally or socially in this state, so that may be a good time to pull back for a bit. A way to pull yourself out of this state can be as simple as a glass of wine or a cup of coffee to dull the signal and give you reprieve.
Diana and Simone believe that you can name it, if you'd like. And they find that reverting to your childlike self, or terms used from your childhood can be helpful for achieving the state of mind. So if you grew up Christian and went to church, you may want to call it God or Holy Spirit or Jesus. If you grew up more secular, but watch sci fi, maybe call it The Force or The Ether. If you were a fan of literature, call it The Muse. If you're more atheistic or technology centric, call it The Network or The Signal. Again, make it your own personal thing. Apply the scientific method by trying different things and see what works best for you and is most sustainable for your life.
Personally, I'm finding more peace and clear state of mind more than anything else. I don't think my creativity has expanded substantially, but I can definitely tell I'm more calm, at peace, and less emotional throughout my waking hours. And no shit, these protocols are basically just a healthy way to live without stimulants or escapism. It's not magic. It's just a healthy, simple, natural way to live. And if it gives me a stronger connection to the universal consciousness as a by product, even better.

In the reddit thread this is the image in the thumbnail, it was a 1 of the slides from Dianas first talk. I saved it when I saw it because I had a feeling I would want to refer to it in the future. You could say I had a feeling about it as Diana might say!

The Protocols of Extreme Creativity

Would you like to buy a book? Shes an author you know, of books! Theres words in them and everything.

Apologies my compadres but enrollment is closed, for our education we are going to have to rely on Mickelangelo Westward whose site we so graciously use and whose YouTube channel is so very cool.

https://dwpasulka-courses.teachable.com/p/the-protocols-seminar-series-the-protocols-for-success

All that to say, Hal Puthoff was NOT a former CIA employee. He worked at SRI, a contractor to the US government, including the CIA. And his work at SRI was found sub-optimal and he eventually lost the gig.

They always do this. Say something that is kind of true but not true enough for them to of said it the way that they did. If that makes any sense at all...

 

[deirdre]

The Protocols of Extreme Creativity

why do you keep saying "extreme"?

Apologies my compadres but enrollment is closed, for our education we are going to have to rely on Mickelangelo Westward whose site we so graciously use and whose YouTube channel is so very cool.

sounds like you already took the course

 

[jarlrmai]

They always do this. Say something that is kind of true but not true enough for them to of said it the way that they did. If that makes any sense at all...

The tactic is to be always using rotating descriptions of the same small group of people so it seems like a load of different high profile current occupiers of the posts they held or places the contracted for etc.

CIA/Navy/Pentagon officer/official/advisor/representative etc.

Then put the ex/former qualifier in the article and make it so you have to read the full article and know the Invisible college/Ufology to work out it's just Puthoff/Bigelow/Davis etc again.

 

[Ann K]

The tactic is to be always using rotating descriptions of the same small group of people so it seems like a load of different high profile current occupiers of the posts they held or places the contracted for etc.

"Pooh-Bah", in The Mikado, is First Lord of the Treasury, Lord Chief Justice, Commander-in-Chief, Lord High Admiral, Archbishop, Lord Mayor, and Lord High Everything Else.

 

[NorCal Dave]

From @Haliate2854 post #51 above. These are comments made on reddit supposedly by someone taking one of Pasulka's courses. I don't tend to trust reddit, they don't seem to demand the same level of evidence we do here. People just say what they think. However, there was this tidbit about Pasulka:

She is also one of they key leaders in the new Sol Foundation.

Content from External Source

Sure enough, here she is on the "People" page for the SOL Foundation, right between Avi and Jaques:


https://thesolfoundation.org/people/

And what exactly does Nolan's SOL Foundation believe? They hide behind some "IFs", but I think it's clear what they think (bold by me):

As revelation of the reality of UAP would be world-changing in every sense of the term, the Foundation’s work is not confined to purely academic research but extends to advisory and policy work as well as public education. In sum, the Sol Foundation’s mission is threefold:

1. To help fund and set a clear direction for the initial 25 years of public research related to UAP, nonhuman intelligences, and the implications of their existence for human understandings of nature, society, technology, and politics. In this, the Foundation intends to be the leading source of the best scientific, intellectual, and policy research on the issue.
2. To provide reliable, cutting-edge advisory research to the United States’ and other national governments as well as corporate clients. Sol will establish itself as and remain the foremost think tank on UAP: the source of the most informed and insightful policy recommendations available.
3. To offer insight and guidance to the public on the cosmological and political implications of UAP. As humanity grows to understand that it is not the sole intelligence in the universe, Sol will share its perspectives on how humans might creatively respond to this new reality.

Content from External Source

1. https://thesolfoundation.org/about/

So, if I can simplify a bit here: Since we at SOL know the Aliens are here, we want to be the main lobbyist for insightful government and corporate policy decisions concerning these already present Aliens. It goes on (bold by me):

As government engagements with UAP are freighted by a history of secrecy and overclassification, Sol is committed to developing a socially responsible approach to the issue—one appropriate for democratic societies. In this regard, we have three aims:

1. The establishment and maintenance by the United States’ and other national governments of informed, democratic oversight of their UAP engagements, including by creating public transparency.
2. The promotion of UAP-related research that is commercially and ecologically responsible.
3. The fostering of a greater sense of common humanity across cultures, faiths, nations, and polities, including by supporting the development of UAP-focused initiatives at international institutions.

Content from External Source

Again, disclosure and oversite of something we believe has already happened and maybe we can make a few bucks on it in the meantime. Pasulka is right in the middle of it.

Honestly, if this slide is really from the seminar, it's just a rehash of some common sense blended with New Agey stuff, some Eastern religion and a general "be happy" wellness/mindfulness trope. It isn't even that original:



Also note, as is common with these, the buyer has to perform certain actions to receive what they are paying for. If you want to connect to an "Intelligence" it's your job to "Post less", "Create a space", "Create a healthy body" and so on. You didn't make a connection? I guess you weren't praying or meditating enough. Don't worry, there is probably another seminar to pay for to help with that.

As for "Pay us to learn how to connect to whatever it is out there" I guess they have to keep the "Its Aliens" part on the down low and just call it an "Intelligence". Paying someone to learn how to connect with Aliens is Dr. Steven Greer's gig.

 

[yoshy]

It seems like she went from researching UFO phenomenon from a religious perspective to becoming a bit of a convert hanging around with some of the usual suspects.

I read American Cosmic, and I was waiting the whole time for even just a hint of skepticism, but it never came. It was abundantly clear that she is 100% a UFO convert. I'm curious to hear if anyone else who read it felt the same way.

 

[Haliate2854]

why do you keep saying "extreme"?

Wow I am such an idiot. That is my bad. I mistook the name when I read the only page I had managed to find before I found the real page and archive and I forgot to go back and change it, if it were a snake it would have bit me. Protocol dictates that I am creatively sorry for my addition of that word "extreme". Seriously though, I was struggling to find what I was looking for and I had given up, and for some time this was all I had, a page from somebody elses Patreon which indeed was an incorrect name for her course, you are right. Its-
"The Protocols of Creativity and Success" is the full and correct name, thats my bad but I cannot edit my post.

sounds like you already took the course

My creative protocols bring the biologics to the yard, and Dianas like, "by the way, we charge "

From @Haliate2854 post #51 above. These are comments made on reddit supposedly by someone taking one of Pasulka's courses. I don't tend to trust reddit, they don't seem to demand the same level of evidence we do here. People just say what they think. However, there was this tidbit about Pasulka:

Yeah and my friend you are right to be standing in that position, the only reason I felt confident sharing this is there is because the things in that course mirror things Diana says in her many interviews. If she wasn't so outspoken with her beliefs I don't know if I would have had enough information to of posted this confidently.

Honestly, if this slide is really from the seminar, it's just a rehash of some common sense blended with New Agey stuff, some Eastern religion and a general "be happy" wellness/mindfulness trope. It isn't even that original:

Unfortunately, as I stated earlier, the original post was deleted due to being viewed by the moderators as recruitment for a UFO cult, and you have no true cause to trust me. But I assure you its real. And yes you are correct, she brings nothing new to the table, she is kind of just a chef who cooked up this "meal" to sell people, she didn't come up with any of this herself, she just mashed it all together. If you go to the archive I found and you look at the tiny little thumbnail you can see its the same image as the one I posted.

Also note, as is common with these, the buyer has to perform certain actions to receive what they are paying for. If you want to connect to an "Intelligence" it's your job to "Post less", "Create a space", "Create a healthy body" and so on. You didn't make a connection? I guess you weren't praying or meditating enough. Don't worry, there is probably another seminar to pay for to help with that.

Dont forget drugs, if you read the post by the Reddit user she also says some people find success via the use of drugs. I dont know why they thought this was a good idea to include, but I have to admit, these people do generally know their audiences.. So forget me I guess. She does say not to rely on it, but really? Unwise in my opinion, very unwise but we are talking about a lack of wisdom within a lack of wisdom here so what does it really matter to her?

Other questions are more nuanced after you have experience with the "creative signal". But to summarize, the overarching theme is, do whatever works best for you. While they may tell you to be sober, well rested, well hydrated, etc, if you find success with THC, psilocybin, etc, they say to feel free to do your thing... responsibly. While also stressing that being reliant upon external factors is not sustainable. The best way to find that creative connection is to do it naturally, and be able to control it with your own body.

As for "Pay us to learn how to connect to whatever it is out there" I guess they have to keep the "Its Aliens" part on the down low and just call it an "Intelligence". Paying someone to learn how to connect with Aliens is Dr. Steven Greer's gig.

I might be wrong. But I think out of everyone in the Sol Foundation, Diana might be the most outspoken when it comes to things shes willing to say/believe. I cant make it out whether or not she misspeaks, lies, or truly believes in what she says. I get a strong "I WANT TO BELIEVE" feeling from her, as if she will jump at anything that confirms her beliefs. Its interesting the way the UFO topic has floated from so many people to where they are now.
Poor Tom DeLong and Steven Greer... They will just have to be content with counting the money they have already charged everyone. I will never forget that ridiculous little "alien" that ended up being a poor deformed human soul (rest in peace as it didn't deserve to have its grave disturbed and shoved into a lab because people are hunting aliens) who likely passed as a result of its genetic deformities, and was not an alien body.
I have always been jaded over this topic, but never before have I ever been so cynical and so jaded over this topic as I am about these new people pushing this new disclosure movement. Maybe I am just getting old, but watching the same tricks play out 3 times over a period of 20 years? Very frustrating to see so many people fall for it time and time again.

I read American Cosmic, and I was waiting the whole time for even just a hint of skepticism, but it never came. It was abundantly clear that she is 100% a UFO convert. I'm curious to hear if anyone else who read it felt the same way.

This isn't exactly a new trend, but it never gets any less annoying to hear. Somebody says "look, I am as skeptical as the next person, but-" then goes on to tell us how to contact an alien with psychic powers by meditating or munching down on psychotropic mushrooms. Like come on, really?

 

[deirdre]

Unfortunately, as I stated earlier, the original post was deleted due to being viewed by the moderators as recruitment for a UFO cult, and you have no true cause to trust me. But I assure you its real

i think he means is the photo really a slide show from the seminar or did this reddit chick just make it up. (the reddit chick reposted the same post in anothr forum..just google her reddit name)

Also note, as is common with these, the buyer has to perform certain actions to receive what they are paying for. If you want to connect to an "Intelligence" it's your job to "Post less", "Create a space", "Create a healthy body" and so on. You didn't make a connection? I guess you weren't praying or meditating enough. Don't worry, there is probably another seminar to pay for to help with that.

how is that any different than a psychologist office or buying any self help book? (not saying this is the woman to go to if you want to learn how to meditate..seems like an odd choice if you ask me, just pointing out that all slef hlp stuff is like that. except Alcoholics Anonymous... they are free)

 

[NorCal Dave]

how is that any different than a psychologist office or buying any self help book? (not saying this is the woman to go to if you want to learn how to meditate..seems like an odd choice if you ask me, just pointing out that all slef hlp stuff is like that. except Alcoholics Anonymous... they are free)

Agreed, but I do think some of these self-help New Age type things are a bit different. If I go to golf coach or guitar instructor and I pay them money to learn to do these activities, there is the expectation that I will have to perform/practice to get something out of the instruction. However, there should be a direct effect of that instruction and practice. My golf game should improve or my guitar playing should improve.

Pasulka is selling "creativity". After attending her class I will be more "creative" which sounds very amorphous. Golf instruction should result in better accuracy, longer drives and lower scores on average, over time. Music is a little different, as there is more of creative side to it. Guitar instruction should result in better and more accurate playing and the ability to play more complex songs. That improvement MAY also improve one's creativity as their increased skills may allow them to express more complicated musical ideas.

But simply becoming more "creative" seems a bit hard to quantify, but that's what Pasulka's class is about:

The Protocols of Extreme Creativity: A Live, Online Class with Dr. Diana Pasulka, Author of “American Cosmic: UFOs, Religion, and Technology,” Beginning September 14

Content from External Source

Wednesdays September 14th, 21st, and 28th.
Time: 6-8 pm ET/New York City time
Admission: $160 Patreon members / $175 general admission

PLEASE NOTE: All classes will also be recorded and archived for students who cannot make that time

Creativity is productive—we’ve learned this through the cross-cultural study of communities and social groups that have cultivated the body and mind to produce what is currently called “the creative download.” People and small groups of creative people have changed culture through creative interventions and innovations.

This course is a survey of selected communities of “downloaders” or people who have cultivated their extreme creativity to produce art, technologies, or engage in spiritual practice. What types of practices and behaviors do they utilize? How do these practices enable their creative processes? These questions and others will guide the course.

Content from External Source

https://www.patreon.com/posts/protocols-of-new-70512235

Attendants will basically learn how some other person does art or gets spiritual so then one can copy that. It just sounds similar to workshops/retreats/classes on "wellness" or "mindfulness" or just being "happy". What's being "taught" is how to feel about something that is different for different people.

I can attend all the meditation classes there are and I don't think it will make me more "creative". Everything I've seen or read about meditation seems to me like it's a colossal waste of time. For me. I'd likely new be more "creative" going out to my shop and just tinkering on something which is going stimulate other ideas, rather than folding up like a pretzel and trying to not think about not thinking about thinking. Likewise with the other New Age self-help amorphous subjects like "wellness" and "mindfulness".

 

[Ann K]

how is that any different than a psychologist office or buying any self help book?

Anyone can write a book. A psychologist must be educated / accredited / licensed. It is careless and naïve to lump the two in together as if there is no difference.

 

[Ann K]

Likewise with the other New Age self-help amorphous subjects like "wellness" and "mindfulness".

I once, as an experiment, asked people on a comment thread to define "mindfulness" (and at a different time to define "spirituality"). Their definitions were all different, contradictory, and usually circular. I gave up.

 

[John J.]

[Quoting Diana W. Pasulka]
Creativity is productive.

It certainly is, if you can persuade people to fork out $175 for a two-hour talk on "creativity".

 

[deirdre]

I can attend all the meditation classes there are and I don't think it will make me more "creative". Everything I've seen or read about meditation seems to me like it's a colossal waste of time. For me.

i hear you, but im guessing people who sign up for these workshops are more invested in trying then you are.

Businesses give all these weird types of 'training' things too. (hopefully meditating isnt part of the deal, but in this day and age who knows!)

if you can persuade people to fork out $175 for a two-hour talk on "creativity".

i think the full course was 9 hrs. and you probably get a workbook. Considering what going to the movies cost, its not that crazy expensive

-----------------------------------------
edit add: uh oh

Article:

Ruchika shares the analogy that our mind is like a snowglobe. We’re constantly shaking it with information overload, distractions and task switching. This results in reduced clarity of our priorities and a lack of focus. By practicing a brief meditation (as short as five minutes!)—we can let the “snow'' settle and see things more clearly and vividly. Clarity of mind can help us prioritize what’s important, solve problems better, figure out new strategies or uncover issues we may have ignored.

Source: https://blog.google/inside-google/life-at-google/mindfulness-at-work/

 

[Mendel]

I once, as an experiment, asked people on a comment thread to define "mindfulness" (and at a different time to define "spirituality"). Their definitions were all different, contradictory, and usually circular. I gave up.

The dictionary readily defines the concept.
It's not clear that the people you asked have understood it. If I asked a random group of strangers what "linear interpolation" meant, and the answers were mostly off the mark, that still wouldn't invalidate the concept.

 

[Ann K]

The dictionary readily defines the concept.
It's not clear that the people you asked have understood it. If I asked a random group of strangers what "linear interpolation" meant, and the answers were mostly off the mark, that still wouldn't invalidate the concept.

The dictionary may define something, but if many people use their own different definitions, there's a problem. Dictionaries are descriptive, not prescriptive, and thus are constantly changing of necessity.

 

[yoshy]

I can attend all the meditation classes there are and I don't think it will make me more "creative". Everything I've seen or read about meditation seems to me like it's a colossal waste of time. For me. I'd likely new be more "creative" going out to my shop and just tinkering on something which is going stimulate other ideas, rather than folding up like a pretzel and trying to not think about not thinking about thinking. Likewise with the other New Age self-help amorphous subjects like "wellness" and "mindfulness".

I know this is off topic but some of the above takes on mindfulness and meditation are really bad and possibly even harmful. Mindfulness and meditation are both evidence based practices. *Emotional Intelligence: Why It Can Matter More Than IQ* by Daniel Goleman is a good source to learn about why mindfulness is important both personally and interpersonally.

Further resources:
Mindfulness meditation: A research-proven way to reduce stress (American Psychological Association)

Meditation and Mindfulness: What You Need To Know (National Institute of Health)

I will note however that I am not familiar with any research between mediation and improving creativity. And yes, they have also been terribly misused by many self-help "gurus".

 

[NorCal Dave]

I know this is off topic but some of the above takes on mindfulness and meditation are really bad and possibly even harmful.

I don't know about "harmful". In my quote I made it clear, I thought, that it was my personal view on M&M increasing "creativity".

Plenty of people like and practice M&M and have positive results, which is great. Plenty of people like and practice the Rosary, pray to Saints and have positive results. They're not my cup of tea, and it the context of the discussion, I don't see how one could quantify the increase in "creativity" from either practice.

Mindfulness and meditation are both evidence based practices

This might be a fun topic for its own thread. Maybe in General Discussion?

 

[deirdre]

I don't see how one could quantify the increase in "creativity" from either practice.

i dont really believe 10 minutes could make that much of a difference..just throwing this in to demonstrate one example of how people quantified it in this case.

Article:

2017

Can 10 Minutes of Meditation Make You More Creative?​

...
Even discounting the results of these other factors, the meditators demonstrated a 22% wider range of ideas than the two non-meditating groups.

Source: https://hbr.org/2017/08/can-10-minutes-of-meditation-make-you-more-creative

 

[John J.]

i dont really believe 10 minutes could make that much of a difference..just throwing this in to demonstrate one example of how people quantified it in this case.

Article: 2017

Can 10 Minutes of Meditation Make You More Creative?​

...
Even discounting the results of these other factors, the meditators demonstrated a 22% wider range of ideas than the two non-meditating groups.

That's interesting.
Meditation appears to have useful effects for many people, and I can't see it doing any harm (though don't do it for twenty minutes in the middle of your shift at Air Traffic Control).

Had a quick look at the research referred to by @deirdre. Admittedly I'm going a bit off-topic here;

The ideas of each participant in the two non-meditator groups were in at least two categories, versus four categories for the meditators.
...the ideas of each person in the largest segment of meditators (21% of the group) were in nine categories, which included gardening (cutting trees, watering flowers) and security (extinguishing fires) and ranged from the somewhat plausible (washing windows) to the downright silly (feeding giraffes).

Content from External Source

It's not particularly well-written; the non-meditator subjects had ideas "...in at least two categories" (at least two might mean five, or ten), versus four categories for the meditators. (It is stated "...meditators came up with a much wider range of ideas".)
There's no data to enable us to find the actual number for the non-meditators, or information which explains how the number of "categories" of ideas is determined. It's hard to see how the latter can be done wholly objectively.

Each of the three groups generated roughly the same number of ideas...

Content from External Source

The researchers state that that some of the (more numerous) idea categories in the meditation group were

"...downright silly..."

Content from External Source

but do not make any equivalent statement for the non-meditators.
There is no indication of what percentage of the meditation group's ideas were "downright silly". The article, as written, does not rule out the possibility that more useful ideas, albeit across a narrower range of conceptual categories, came from one or both of the non-meditating groups.
It is certainly implied that there was a higher proportion of "silly" ideas from the meditation group.
Whether silly ideas disproportionately accounted for the larger number of categories returned by the meditation group isn't addressed.

Maybe the meditation subjects, for whatever reason, felt more at ease to raise ideas across a broader conceptual range, including less useful ("...silly") ideas without fear of ridicule. A broader range, but less focus- and more "noise" (a higher ratio of not-so-useful: useful ideas).

The physical relaxation that accompanies many forms of meditation is beneficial to many, and there are times where "blue skies" thinking and receptivity to diverse out-of-domain influences can be useful.
There are also situations that require immediate or near-future actions / solutions which are likely to be effective, and where someone might want "low noise", domain-specific advice.
The Schootstra, Deichmann and Dolgova work doesn't appear to demonstrate that meditation is useful in those situations.

 

[Ann K]

It's not particularly well-written; the non-meditator subjects had ideas "...in at least two categories" (at least two might mean five, or ten), versus four categories for the meditators. (It is stated "...meditators came up with a much wider range of ideas".)

My thoughts on the matter:

Being "creative", however that is defined, is desirable in some situations, but this description doesn't differentiate between useful ideas for any particular task and what we might refer to as mere daydreaming. I am not sure how many employers would want to put time and effort into helping their work force think about feeding giraffes and planting flowers.

As for stress relief, some people experience stress if they are absorbed in a particular task, but others may find that stimulating rather than stressful. I always found it stressful when I was occasionally told to take part in various "problem-solving", "team-building", and "paradigm shift" activities at work, things that I considered to be distracting from the job at hand rather than helping in any way.

Bottom line: meditation isn't for everyone, but then again, neither is every job suitable for everyone.

 

[NorCal Dave]

@Ann K and @John J. , I had some of the same thoughts reading the Schoostra article. I figured it was a bit off topic and might be for a thread on Mindfulness Meditation and its various supposed benefits. Though, it is about creativity and that's what Pasulka is selling, so maybe it does go here. I'll check back in the morning.

 

[deirdre]

I figured it was a bit off topic

ive only skimmed this thread as overly long comments bore me and nothing i landed on sounded like a debunk of any of her claims.

have any of her specific claims been addressed in this thread? ..i'm saying i dont think it matters at this point whether whatever you want to talk about is off topic or not.

 

[John J.]

..i'm saying i dont think it matters at this point whether whatever you want to talk about is off topic or not.

No no, you're right, we should stay on topic, specifically Diana W. Pasulka and JRE podcast #2091.
Sorry for the diversion. Can't think why I looked at the Schootstra et al. article

 

[Area 51/50]

2) JR promoted the hypothesis that all religions and originated from experiences with psychedelics, especially mushrooms - this came up all the time in the course of the discussion, that every religion had rituals associated with some kind of psychotropic drugs and generally this is where these fantastic descriptions of gods and paradise come from. JR even claimed that all of Christianity is built on experiences with mushrooms - Pasulka (rightly) cooled him down here, that it's not that simple and the formation of religion is a more complicated process than drugging oneself and writing down experiences.

Rogan is obviously silly, but it's interesting to note that the DMT experience is chock-full of Egyptian, Aztec, and Hindu deities (among others). There are plenty of reports you can find online where people describe figures like Ganesha or Vishnu, Anubis, or Quetzalcoatl without realizing who they are. Hinduism and Buddhism are especially prevalent with various motifs throughout. People also commonly see biblically accurate angels, despite having no religious beliefs or knowledge of them.

DMT is known for knocking hardcore atheists down a peg to agnostic. I definitely think there's some sort of connection between whatever is on the other end of it and some of the alien abduction stories.

 

[Scaramanga]

1) JR seems to be strongly skeptical of abductions, claiming that because most of them take place at night or when people are heavily fatigued, that these experiences are the result of brain activity during sleep, particularly DMT production by the pineal gland. In general, he often referred to this DMT and mentioned his own experiences that after taking DMT one gets into this alternate reality full of strange alien-like beings and that one has a feeling of immense peace and that has been there before (It seems similiar to NDEs). Pasulka had a different opinion here, claiming that quite a few of these abductions also take place during the day, so from her point of view abductions are not only dreams.

2) JR promoted the hypothesis that all religions and originated from experiences with psychedelics, especially mushrooms - this came up all the time in the course of the discussion, that every religion had rituals associated with some kind of psychotropic drugs and generally this is where these fantastic descriptions of gods and paradise come from. JR even claimed that all of Christianity is built on experiences with mushrooms - Pasulka (rightly) cooled him down here, that it's not that simple and the formation of religion is a more complicated process than drugging oneself and writing down experiences.

I've never bought the 'sleep paralysis' theory. It's a classic example of debunkers jumping on the first simplistic idea that comes along, and ignoring countless counter-examples in testimony. I've personally had sleep paralysis on numerous occassions.....no aliens involved, though it is often associated with a phenomenon called hypnagogic imagery ( which in turn is similar to seeing geometric fractals like with DMT ). Sleep paralysis can be associated with a 'presence', and of something weighing down on one....I've had that and its really a totally different thing to most alleged abduction cases.

I also note, after a huge amount of reading on the topic of DMT, that the 'aliens' encountered really aren't like those of classic abduction cases and are not 4 foot tall greys or mantids or whatever but tend to be either mechanical type devices or...most common of all....snakes !

Shamanic religions are almost certainly derived from psychotropic drugs....but there's really zero evidence that the Abrahamic religions have any such connection ( snakes in the garden of Eden notwithstanding ). And the thing that so often gets missed is that UFOlogy is itself a religion and has all the hallmarks of one, and most of the 'witnesses' will have never taken drugs.

 

[Scaramanga]

Rogan is obviously silly, but it's interesting to note that the DMT experience is chock-full of Egyptian, Aztec, and Hindu deities (among others). There are plenty of reports you can find online where people describe figures like Ganesha or Vishnu, Anubis, or Quetzalcoatl without realizing who they are. Hinduism and Buddhism are especially prevalent with various motifs throughout. People also commonly see biblically accurate angels, despite having no religious beliefs or knowledge of them.

DMT is known for knocking hardcore atheists down a peg to agnostic. I definitely think there's some sort of connection between whatever is on the other end of it and some of the alien abduction stories.

From my research of DMT, the wide variety of 'creatures' encountered seldom actually bear any resemblance to the classic sci-fi aliens. I mean, yes, there is some cross-over but if aliens are largely DMT induced I'd expect there to be far greater consistency. Mainly what you get with DMT is people trying to describe incomprehensible 'entities' in everyday language terms and obviously seizing on whatever religious or cultural gods, demons, angels, or whatever other such entities they know about. DMT entities are 'alien' more in the sense of not being describable in terms of flesh and blood physical beings.

I'm also dubious of the link with NDEs. Though the DMT trip 'can' have a tunnel type entrance, the realm itself really isn't anything like the 'heaven' described by many NDE-ers....which itself is more commonly some sort of Tolkienesque fairy tale type English garden with dramatic flowers, etc, than some utterly bizarre realm with geometric fractals flying everywhere.

Incidentally....'biblically accurate angels' are not biblically accurate. Standard angels do not have wings and are pretty much human in appearance. It's only the Cherubim that have wings, and they have four wings or six wings and not the two often depicted in Christian art. Which makes one realise how art has affected people's expectations and thus experience.

 

[Area 51/50]

I also note, after a huge amount of reading on the topic of DMT, that the 'aliens' encountered really aren't like those of classic abduction cases and are not 4 foot tall greys or mantids or whatever but tend to be either mechanical type devices or...most common of all....snakes !

What? The classic Grey alien is very commonly featured in DMT trips, as are mantids. In fact, I'd say mantis creatures are possibly one of the most common entity encounters.

Regarding sleep paralysis: I've had it consistently for over 20 years at this point. I'd only experience hallucinations a tiny fraction of the time; most were terrifying. But as far as regular SP goes, I'm so used to it that it's not even scary, just annoying. However, after dabbling with DMT (and accidentally going much farther than I intended), my sleep issues changed quite a bit.

For starters, my first episode of SP. I wake, realize I'm in bed, and am in pitch dark. Okay, sleep paralysis, I think to myself before beginning my routine to break free. But I can't move anything, which has never happened. I can always move a little bit or wiggle a toe. This time, nothing. And then I see him. Or it. The entity that was, uh, tormenting me in the DMT trip. He's just staring at me, doesn't communicate or move. I say (via thinking), "Please let me out of this" and instantly my head comes flying off my pillow like I'd been trying to break free from it for a while.

Since then, I've been waking to the feeling of being lifted up and out of my bed. The few times I've not fought it, I've had an OOBE, which I never have before. I've woke up 2-3 times now that I can remember to seeing that entity. The most recent, there was another with him and when I got scared and tried moving, it yelled, "LAY STILL!" in its demonic voice.

Anyway, not trying to derail the thread, but DMT is odd and I find a lot of the classic abduction stories to go hand in hand. All powerful beings that can control time and matter, lock your body in place, etc. I don't necessarily believe SP has to be more than the simple explanations, but hypnopompic and hypnogogic hallucinations can only account for so much, haha.

 

[Area 51/50]

From my research of DMT, the wide variety of 'creatures' encountered seldom actually bear any resemblance to the classic sci-fi aliens.

Again, I disagree, although the resemblance to classic aliens isn't really meaningful to my argument.

I mean, yes, there is some cross-over but if aliens are largely DMT induced I'd expect there to be far greater consistency. Mainly what you get with DMT is people trying to describe incomprehensible 'entities' in everyday language terms and obviously seizing on whatever religious or cultural gods, demons, angels, or whatever other such entities they know about. DMT entities are 'alien' more in the sense of not being describable in terms of flesh and blood physical beings.

Again, I respectfully disagree. Also I'm not necessarily saying aliens are DMT-induced. I am suggesting that the "phenomenon", if there is such a thing, is likely not far from whatever is on the other side of the DMT veil.

I'm also dubious of the link with NDEs. Though the DMT trip 'can' have a tunnel type entrance, the realm itself really isn't anything like the 'heaven' described by many NDE-ers....which itself is more commonly some sort of Tolkienesque fairy tale type English garden with dramatic flowers, etc, than some utterly bizarre realm with geometric fractals flying everywhere.

I have found plenty of NDE reports that are extremely similar to DMT, although it's not something I feel strongly about. Here's one that is incredibly similar to DMT. "utterly bizarre realm with geometric fractals flying everywhere" is what people think of with DMT, but DMT can do/show anything. It's not just geometric patterns and whatnot.

Incidentally....'biblically accurate angels' are not biblically accurate. Standard angels do not have wings and are pretty much human in appearance. It's only the Cherubim that have wings, and they have four wings or six wings and not the two often depicted in Christian art. Which makes one realise how art has affected people's expectations and thus experience.

You seem to be making an assumption about what I am referring to WRT "biblically accurate angels." While I know little about scripture, the angels I am referring to are called "wheels" or "thrones" I think. Ophanim, nothing like feathered flying white things playing harps. They're wheel-looking structures, covered in eyes. Nothing like the classic angel.

And yes, the multiple winged creatures, also with eyes everywhere. And again, I am referring to people who had no previous knowledge of these figures. Folks who mention some blue figure with multiple arms or something. I'm not suggesting it makes them real or anything, either. We have similar neural architecture and all that.

Here's are a couple threads with people discussing what I'm referring to. Many of the people had no idea what they were, only recognizing them after the fact. Haha, oddly enough, a post in one of them references the mantids as being the most common entity next to the Greys.

Just curious, have either of you done DMT?

 

[Ann K]

Rogan is obviously silly, but it's interesting to note that the DMT experience is chock-full of Egyptian, Aztec, and Hindu deities (among others). There are plenty of reports you can find online where people describe figures like Ganesha or Vishnu, Anubis, or Quetzalcoatl without realizing who they are. Hinduism and Buddhism are especially prevalent with various motifs throughout.

You've made a claim that I question. I'd like to see a scientific citation for that, not just "plenty of reports you can find online". A good many people have already seen illustrations of deities from other religions, and thus many have preconceived notions of what they might be expected to look like. And for those who do not see them as recognizable figures, who was it who made the connection between their DMT visions and those various gods? Might they be people who are motivated to claim "They saw gods", and thus exaggerate the supposed similarity?

The same goes for visions of aliens, and, like "gods", nobody has a real alien with which to compare the likeness. It all boils down to the circular "Looks like something which happens to look like someone else's idea of what it should look like".

 

[deirdre]

You've made a claim that I question. I'd like to see a scientific citation for that, not just "plenty of reports you can find online". A good many people have already seen illustrations of deities from other religions, and thus many have preconceived notions of what they might be expected to look like. And for those who do not see them as recognizable figures, who was it who made the connection between their DMT visions and those various gods? Might they be people who are motivated to claim "They saw gods", and thus exaggerate the supposed similarity?

The same goes for visions of aliens, and, like "gods", nobody has a real alien with which to compare the likeness. It all boils down to the circular "Looks like something which happens to look like someone else's idea of what it should look like".

it doesnt matter if someone forgets seeing an LP cover, a kaleidoscope or honestly has never seen an African deity.

if one man can dream it, another can dream it.

Any overlaps with drugs, sleep paralysis, meditation etc, and "gods" are just par for the course.