George B
Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
In no way am I arguing that point. . . .
I am a Chemtrail Advocate . . . I believe there is an Aerosol Injection Program
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In no way am I arguing that point. . . .
Yes, there sure are. I just don't think you are able to accept those reasons as truth.
George B
Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
I know that in my career I was known as someone who was not easily fooled and never took the first review of something as the reality of a situation. . . I was a fixer one sent to investigate, analyze and implement changes that had to work. . . So why would I believe CHEMTRAILs exist. . . .?
So you say...
I don't know why you require so little evidence to accept the "chemtrail" urban legend as reality.
Just because you find merit in 18 of 30 conspiracies...doesn't mean the 18 are truth. I'm curious...would you like to share the 18 at some point? Maybe not here...but on the thread. I'd LOVE to know which have merit...to you.
Jay Reynolds
Senior Member.
George,
Please have a look at my common sense approach to how your people could narrow the field:
14 Years of Chemtrails, Comments and Suggestions( now its 15 years):
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/100-14-Years-of-Chemtrails-Comments-and-Suggestions
Will you take my suggestion?
If you want help, I can show you how.
Please have a look at my common sense approach to how your people could narrow the field:
14 Years of Chemtrails, Comments and Suggestions( now its 15 years):
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/100-14-Years-of-Chemtrails-Comments-and-Suggestions
Will you take my suggestion?
If you want help, I can show you how.
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George B
Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
Why believe CHEMTRAILs exist. . . .
First. . . .when people first become aware of the concept . . .they may have never thought about it before. . . .but can see in the skies persistent trails periodically and sometimes note that they can go horizon to horizon and eventually fill the sky with haze and they seem to alter the sky . . . A visceral, primeval response to a possible threat. . . What the heck is that !!!! . . . I don't remember that when I was growing up, etc. (Yes. . . .I know they have been there before; however, I don't think in the numbers or frequency)
Second, they ask someone or go to the Internet, papers, TV, etc to try to figure it
out or at least find out what others think. . .what a shock. . . What to think. . . What is bunk, and what is good info . . .?
First. . . .when people first become aware of the concept . . .they may have never thought about it before. . . .but can see in the skies persistent trails periodically and sometimes note that they can go horizon to horizon and eventually fill the sky with haze and they seem to alter the sky . . . A visceral, primeval response to a possible threat. . . What the heck is that !!!! . . . I don't remember that when I was growing up, etc. (Yes. . . .I know they have been there before; however, I don't think in the numbers or frequency)
Second, they ask someone or go to the Internet, papers, TV, etc to try to figure it
out or at least find out what others think. . .what a shock. . . What to think. . . What is bunk, and what is good info . . .?
George B
Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
Thank you I will review it in depth as time allows. .
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George B
Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
I can share that later either here or in private. . .
That seems a little odd.
It suggests the evidence is inconclusive to you. But you were "forced" to take the chemtrail side? What forced you? A sense of balance?
Why is nobody arguing the case for robot cats? Or chemspots.
Surely (unless you are lawyer) you advocate something because you believe it?
Several of the choices refer to real events, it's unclear from the poll what the actual "conspiracy" was. You can assume some, but MK-ULTRA was a real conspiracy, so I'd probably say 1. Although given the overall tone, I'd suspect that far more was being read into MK-ULTRA, and say 0, to be on the safe side.
George B
Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
I was attempting to get a group of people to use a Forum to fully and rationally debate a controversial topic. . . As a public service. . . CHEMTRAILs was chosen at random and I said I was willing to take either side. . . I ended up with the Chemtrail Advocate side. . . was not familiar with CHEMTRAILs at all before that time except as a rumor . . . I really had no strong interest in it before. . .
George B
Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
In my experience . . . Your response is very representative of Chemtrail debunkers. . . . I would eventually like to explain why . . . In an unbiased and thoughtful manner. . .
I think a HUGE part of the "why" question is that these people already believe in other conspiracies. As a base they will probably believe in the JFK and 9/11 conspiracies (of some variety).
So you have people who ALREADY believe that the government is engaged in huge, monstrous, and evil secret programs, with no regard for public safety. What is one more such theory to these people - especially if their friends and peers are the ones who tell them about it?
Consider this with your average person. They don't like the government, they probably don't trust politicians. But they have never entertained the possibility that such evil things have been happening, maybe JFK, but certainly not 9/11. Or if they have, they consider it and reject it as preposterous, and baseless. Besides, they never really paid that much attention to clouds, they can't really remember what they were like 10 years ago.
For the conspiracy theorist, it's just another conspiracy, ho-hum, par for the course, what do you expect.
For the average person, it's a radical re-alignment of their world view, a stunning and terrifying realization that the world is vastly more evil than they thought.
Theorists refer to this as an "awakening", somewhat similar to being "born again" in the christian faith. In their minds they have made that sudden realization, they have pulled back the curtain, they took the red pill.
But to the average person they have just gone a bit batty. It's like when someone "gets religion". There's no talking them out of it.
Do you think if you argued the other side you would have reached the same conclusion? Or are you still simply playing devils advocate even now? Do you actually believe in chemtrails?
It seems fairly clear why. Give me a clue.
George B
Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
To continue with my personal journey. . . .I tried to stay away from Chemtrail sites altogether because I didn't want to be biased by their opinions. . . Kept to NASA, NOAA, GOA Reports, Congressional Testimony, State, US, Federal and international laws and treaties, IPCC, CFR, Geoengineering Symposia and research. . . . However,
to argue for CHEMTRAILs I was required to place theoretical constructs around this Wealth of material to argue for the Chemtrail Theory. . . .I approached it like anything else I had done in my life. . . I theorized. . . .If it is real, who could be doing it, How are they doing it, how can they pay for it, how can they keep their operations secret, why are they doing it and if I were to construct a system to accomplish it. . . What would I do. . . .
George B
Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
Let me start by saying it has something to do with biodiversity. . . Like eye color . . .there are major groups, brown, blue, green but some grey and other rare combinations. . . These are dictated by genetic laws of dominance, recessive, co-dominance etc. . . .
Neural processing and thought patterns are also dictated by genetics as well as training, experience, instinct, etc.. . .
Using myself as an example I will try to explain further . . .
PCWilliams
Senior Member.
Some people are just paranoid of all things they don't understand, which is probably a natural byproduct of our evolution. Michael Shermer would call these evolutionary instincts "patternicity" (the tendency to find meaningful patterns in both meaningful and meaningless noise) and "agenticity" (the tendency to infuse patterns with meaning, intention, and agency).
To paraphrase his example: Our caveman ancestor, Og, walks past some brush. Og hears something rustling in the brush. Does Og assume the sound is just the wind? Or does Og assume it's a meat eating predator looking for a meal? To avoid winning the Darwin Award, Og must assume the unknown source of the sound is a dangerous predator with the intent to do harm.
We may still be battling this Darwinian survival instinct today.
George B
Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
I am always the devils advocate. . . .it has been a long history of mine. . . However, I do believe there is some type of Aerosol Injection Program ongoing and smaller experimental and rogue programs on occasion. . .
George B
Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
Hmmmm . . . I will have to thinknabout this one. . . .
George B
Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
I am going have to leave here soon and be gone most of the day. . . .however, let me say that I have found I process information and come to conclusions possibly quite differently than say the perdominant group of thinkers here. . . and I belong to a particular group of neural processors that populate the planet. . . .
And what do you believe about the trails that people point to and call "chemtrails"?
On a different note - how would you assess the film "What in the World are they Spraying" in terms of accuracy, and coincidence with your beliefs.
I think you'll find that the people here are not at all as homogeneous as you suggest. On many subjects we differ wildly.
There are also many chemtrail skeptics within the conspiracy community.
George B
Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
I am sorry . . . I don't have the time right now to properly answer your question. . . I have not seen the film in question. . . But will review it. . . Please excuse me for my haste. . . .
Consider that your belief that you are not easily fooled might not be the asset that you seem to be suggesting.
Because eventually when you ARE fooled, then you'd be reluctant to change your mind - after all you were right before, so you MUST be right now.
You'd get stuck.
JFDee
Senior Member.
We have discussed before how conspiracy theories have come to thrive in the recent decade. My personal list contains the following points (quoted from my 'contrailscience' comment):
- The human brain is predisposed to connect dots – independent of reality
- Most conspiracy theories explain accidents away – a big plan (even an evil one) is better than chaos
- The rise of the Internet made it easy to spread bunk – and conspiracy bunk is exciting
- People tend to pick Internet sources that reinforce their opinions and believes
- Believers find it attractive to be part of a “knowing elite” and shield themselves against reasoning
- Media tend to overamplify fringe views – for the sake of balance or to stir up controversy
George B
Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
One quick response. . . The majority of what people point to are persistent trails from high efficiency jet engines on long haul routes. . . .
George B
Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
Not a bad list at all. . . .
George B
Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
Reasonable response. . . .however, in this case I don't feel I have been fooled. . . Unless I fooled myself. . . .
And the one's that are not - are they different? Can you tell the difference? What are they?
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Spongebob
Active Member
Am I missing something here?
I have been following this from the start, expecting somewhere along the way to be presented with GeorgeB`s proof of chemtrails.
All I have witnessed is George slowly but surely admitting that he "knows" chemtrails are "real" because he "feels" it.
What actual "evidence" that contrails are chemtrails has GeorgeB presented?
I have been following this from the start, expecting somewhere along the way to be presented with GeorgeB`s proof of chemtrails.
All I have witnessed is George slowly but surely admitting that he "knows" chemtrails are "real" because he "feels" it.
What actual "evidence" that contrails are chemtrails has GeorgeB presented?
PCWilliams
Senior Member.
The human brain is hardwired to find patterns. We can see patterns even where none exists. This is why gamblers perceive a slot machine is "hot" (It's due to hit the jackpot) when it hasn't paid out in a while. If i rolled six dice and they all came up 5s, a gambler would believe the odds are against the next roll coming up all 5s AGAIN. Patterns where none exist.
Baseball players are notorious for their superstitious rituals. But notice, this superstitious behavior is not as prevalent when the players are playing the field as when they are at bat. This is because the success rate in the field is about 95%, while the success rate at the plate, even by the best of the best, is only about 30%. There is a correlation between pattern-detection and our sense of control.
Ancient people didn't have any idea how and why thunder and lightning occurred. To fill the how/why pattern-seeking void, ancient leaders told the masses the gods were angry and they (the masses) were guilty of some action or inaction. The human instinct to see patterns was used as a form of control.
This is how i see current day conspiracy leaders like Alex Jones and David Icke. They understand the human condition, much like politicians do. They know how to create powerful, perceptual voids which they then fill with their own brand of truth.
I don't think that's a fair characterization. He doesn't just "feel" it. He's been convinced by what he sees as the weight of circumstantial evidence. For example: Edward Teller has discussed spraying SSAs, and NASA seems overly interested in contrails. That's evidence. Not very good evidence, but still evidence.
He's presented that evidence here, and it's either been explained, or its relevance has been disputed.
He is also, to some extent, playing devil's advocate, and I think he's aware of the tenuous nature of most of his evidence.
At the roulette tables in Vegas they have electronic boards that show the previous 20 numbers that came up. Some people look at these and try to figure out from those numbers what numbers are more likely to come up - or if there are more odd than even numbers, or red/black.
I suspect that there are people who know that it's random, but still feel that previous numbers have an influence on the future numbers. It's such a primal feeling that it's hard to shake, even though your left brain knowns it to be totally false.
I don't think this is necessarily due to genetic variations - more likely nurture than nature - but there are certainly difference in the intensity of this false pattern seeking between individuals.
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PCWilliams
Senior Member.
As aware as i am of this human condition, i STILL fall victim to it. Last year i had some big ticket items go wrong in my house and i would tell myself, "It has to get better". There ya' go! As if some imaginary scale has been tipped and is due to right itself!
PCWilliams
Senior Member.
At the roulette tables in Vegas they have electronic boards that show the previous 20 numbers that came up. Some people look at these and try to figure out from those numbers what numbers are more likely to come up - or if there are more odd than even numbers, or red/black.
Change the information on that sign and you actually have a very good analogy for the methods used by conspiracy theorists like Alex Jones - present information in such a way so as to trigger peoples instinctual, perception biases. People are very good at fooling themselves.
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Which you claim are also "chemtrails".
So, you feel your "intuition" coupled with "past bad behavior of "the congressional industrial military complex/machine" " is enough for a full and rational debate?! Because, beyond that, i see VERY little to support your belief that something is being injected into the atmosphere..on a global scale...intentionally.
How would you like to share your beliefs as far as who is spraying where. You have mentioned (on GLP) that no one "sprays" in their own country, and laws/rules are in place to facilitate the spray tankers of other countries to access the airspace over foreign lands...including OUR airspace. Care to elaborate?
firepilot
Senior Member.
Yep, thats called Gamblers Fallacy, that the past results will influence future results. You could get 10 blacks in a row, but to someone who holds this belief, red coming up soon is "due", that somehow because there have been 10 consecutive black, this somehow increases the odds of red coming up.
Same thing with tornados, I have heard people talk about it being a long time since there had been once, implying that this somehow increases the chances of it happening soon.
Now when that is in regards to earthquakes, they can be correct, but thats not random
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