Both. But I think you are opening up a whole new set of topics here George. Care to narrow it down?
Isis/Osiris consipracy, sexual and occult symbology in art, crucifixion scenes
- Thread starter Mick West
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Both. But I think you are opening up a whole new set of topics here George. Care to narrow it down?
George B
Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
I am not sure where to go with it . . . I am just voicing questions as they pop into my head . . . if you have a desired direction please go forward with it . . .
Not really. I was interested in how the "Isis and Osiris" thing was supposed to work. But all I've got so far is the penis stuff, with the implication that the christian church is somehow really still pagan.
George B
Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
I always though the Isis, Osiris thing was more a Masonic Order thing and not that closely aligned with Christian history . . . I would be interested in a discussion about what you suggested . . .
George B
Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
Your take is as good as anyone's . . . seems it is all academic speculation . . . what we know for sure is it is a uninersal human trait . . .My own personal belief is that religion was created in order to explain the unkown - the sun rising and setting, the progression of the seasons, the good or bad hunting. By inventing a deity who could control these things, and pretending we could affect the behaviour of such a deity "we" (humans) gained some illusion of control over these otherwise unfathomable aspects of the universe. I can't tell you who I got this idea from -as it was a while ago now - rest assured I am not capable of such deep and original thought
Following this reasoning I "explain" those things as something "we" do not yet fully understand but have invented a religious (mythical IMO) explaination for to assuage our ignorance.
However science seems to be drawing back the veil of ignorance on the possiession/exorcism side of things slowly - possession is now often though to be epilepsy, or, more recently possibly also anti-NMDA receptor encephalitis
Pete Tar
Senior Member.
I was reading Roger Scruton, and was impressed with his take and saw its reasoning. It was the only thing in the book I could really follow actually (The Intelligent Person's Guide to Philosophy- a good book, but I obviously failed to live up to the title).
His take, and I agree with it, is that as self-awareness is our lot, so too is division between subject and object, inner and outer, etc, which gives rise to an existential anxiety and an urge to close this gap, to be free of the burden that comes with our constant 'self' awareness. Religious group rituals allow for this to happen, our consciousness is altered along with the group and we temporarily lose our estranged and lonely position as a subject in a world of objects.
And with this urge comes the necessity of creating God to heal the existential guilt that seems to arise automatically from being a self-aware being, to provide some relief from our constant self-analysing, to be 'redeemed' in some form.
I see it as all internally generated, but as it's so common to all humans, it almost has an independent life.
Sorry for the large quote, but I find it eloquent.
His take, and I agree with it, is that as self-awareness is our lot, so too is division between subject and object, inner and outer, etc, which gives rise to an existential anxiety and an urge to close this gap, to be free of the burden that comes with our constant 'self' awareness. Religious group rituals allow for this to happen, our consciousness is altered along with the group and we temporarily lose our estranged and lonely position as a subject in a world of objects.
And with this urge comes the necessity of creating God to heal the existential guilt that seems to arise automatically from being a self-aware being, to provide some relief from our constant self-analysing, to be 'redeemed' in some form.
I see it as all internally generated, but as it's so common to all humans, it almost has an independent life.
Sorry for the large quote, but I find it eloquent.
Jazzy
Closed Account
It comes with the turf. We're all equal. I believe existential anxiety to be proportional to neuronal connections. Even a spider can throw a tizzy fit... we've just got more of them. Thanks for the post.
Interesting. Actually I cannot see anything phallic, (in the true sense) at all, so it must be hidden reasonably well unlike in the blasphemous religious art, which jumps out very starkly.
I suggest it is not comparable because of the subject matter, i.e. it is obviously a bloodthirsty game and depicts demonic things so phalli would not be out of context in the least.
But the most interesting thing, AFAICS, is that you acknowledge 'he did it deliberately' whilst at the same time postulating, (with considerable vigor), that the much more readily visible defamation's in many religious artworks are 'accidental' and therefore by inference debunked and carry no occult meaning or symbolism.
Naturally, one must question the motivation for such instant denial.
We can then take that logically further and as mentioned in another post, these imbeds appear in many instances in Disney etc children's movies.
It seems to me the only question here is (not if it is accidental as it obviously isn't even though some may wish to hide behind that or 'an optical illusion'), but is it 'a prank by the artist' or is it sanctioned by Disney?
Yes that is what I am analysing. Make no mistake, I am not 'invested' in this from one side or the other but simply as an interested person who is trying to ascertain with some certainty whether there is merit in the theory or not. So far in my investigation I have found a lot of compelling information which underpins and substantiates the theory. There is no 'short way' of demonstrating it but if you wish I will put forward the evidence as time and circumstance allow me to and discuss it's merits or flaws in an effort to prove or disprove it not only to forum members or readers but also to myself as I am still not totally convinced although I do lean that way.
Ergo, I cannot, and do not aspire to 'proving the theory'.
You ask that I 'set out my argument, i.e. where I am leading'.
For the record and clarification, the theory goes: The Illumined Babylonian priests, were the original humanists and scientists. They were astronomers, mathematicians, philosophers and men of science who wielded massive power and shaped human destiny. They hid this knowledge in the cloak of religion which they used to control the masses. The theory goes that throughout history, secret societies have existed and still exist, based upon these teachings and philosophies and that many of the most powerful elite in today's society are exponents of this philosophy and the ultimate aim is to produce a 'One World Government' which they largely or totally control and that 'some of' mankind can evolve to be 'as gods'.
Here is some interesting pieces which to some extent underpins some of that theory in that it shows the Catholic Church, at the highest level, blasphemously contravening and justifying that contravention of the whole basis of the teachings upon which it purports to rest.
http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/Christmas_TheRealStory.htm
And
http://www.british-israel.us/0803.html
God told the Israelites to destroy the CANAANITE PICTURES and IMAGES (Num.33:52). In some cases these were pictures of sexual vice, perversion and images of idols. Jehu "brought forth the IMAGES out of the house of Baal, and burned them" (2 Ki.10:26). Josiah "took away all of the ABOMINATIONS" (2 Chr.34:33). The graven IMAGES of their gods were the ABOMINATIONS (Deut.7:25). He also "broke down" the ALTARS (2 Ki.23:12-15; Deut.7:5). Why altars? "The ALTARS of approximately 90% of English churches built before 1348 have hidden STONE PHALLI" (p.796, Walker's Woman's Encyc.) Our hearts follow our eyes (Job 31:7). David said, "I will set no wicked thing before mine eyes" (Ps.101:3). The Devil made Eve see that the tree of forbidden fruit was "pleasant to the eyes" (Gen.3:6). This "lust of the eyes" is of the world (1 John 2:16).
In one of the "high places" of Baal, Macalister "found enormous quantities of IMAGES and PLAQUES of Ashtoreth with rudely exaggerated sex organs, designed to foster SENSUAL FEELINGS. This led to prostitution, sodomy and abortion (pp.166-167, Halley's Bible Handbook). The Canaanite religion was very much like the multi-million dollar PORNOGRAPHY industry in America once we understand its connection to FORNICATION and ABORTION.
And the 'official' sanitised version:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03724b.htm
It's the skeletal thumb.
The abs=penis thing might be obvious to you, but can you explain why it would necessarily be obvious to the artist, and why simultaneously nobody seemed to notice this until a few years ago?
I think most, if not all, of the Disney instances (the ones that I've seen) were also accidental - or not even that, more like an extreme reach on the part of the person looking for such things, and then simply "priming" allowing people to see it later (like with the thumb in the game cover). I mean, it's really quite a reach to see a penis in this image, when it's clearly just a depiction of an emaciated man
The other images are copies of older images. The shading became more stylized over time, with the unfortunate result we have today.
I imagine that you remain unconvinced. But the average person just sees this particular argument as ridiculous - it's "those people who see sex everywhere". Even if you disagree, you really need to find some more compelling evidence. I don't imagine this sexual imagery is the entirety of your case, so what's the remainder of the evidence? [Edit: I see you posted some above]
The abs=penis thing might be obvious to you, but can you explain why it would necessarily be obvious to the artist, and why simultaneously nobody seemed to notice this until a few years ago?
I think most, if not all, of the Disney instances (the ones that I've seen) were also accidental - or not even that, more like an extreme reach on the part of the person looking for such things, and then simply "priming" allowing people to see it later (like with the thumb in the game cover). I mean, it's really quite a reach to see a penis in this image, when it's clearly just a depiction of an emaciated man
The other images are copies of older images. The shading became more stylized over time, with the unfortunate result we have today.
I imagine that you remain unconvinced. But the average person just sees this particular argument as ridiculous - it's "those people who see sex everywhere". Even if you disagree, you really need to find some more compelling evidence. I don't imagine this sexual imagery is the entirety of your case, so what's the remainder of the evidence? [Edit: I see you posted some above]
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Okay having read your links, I see it just seems to be "those people who see sex everywhere" and "Christmas used to be a pagan festival", which as I noted was something we were taught in school (Catholic school at that).
I don't think this is going anywhere. Can you give some evidence about something that actually happened in the last 50 years that ties in with your theory?
I don't think this is going anywhere. Can you give some evidence about something that actually happened in the last 50 years that ties in with your theory?
George B
Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
Why would one depict Christ as emaciated . . . I don't think there is evidence of that fact in the scriptures or historical sources or Church history . . . ??It's the skeletal thumb.
The abs=penis thing might be obvious to you, but can you explain why it would necessarily be obvious to the artist, and why simultaneously nobody seemed to notice this until a few years ago?
I think most, if not all, of the Disney instances (the ones that I've seen) were also accidental - or not even that, more like an extreme reach on the part of the person looking for such things, and then simply "priming" allowing people to see it later (like with the thumb in the game cover). I mean, it's really quite a reach to see a penis in this image, when it's clearly just a depiction of an emaciated man
The other images are copies of older images. The shading became more stylized over time, with the unfortunate result we have today.
I imagine that you remain unconvinced. But the average person just sees this particular argument as ridiculous - it's "those people who see sex everywhere". Even if you disagree, you really need to find some more compelling evidence. I don't imagine this sexual imagery is the entirety of your case, so what's the remainder of the evidence? [Edit: I see you posted some above]
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Maybe the 40 day fast had something to do with it.
Clearly though he IS emaciated in this image. Skinny arms and legs, visible ribs and prominent collar bones. Jesus on the cross is often depicted as skinny, especially in the iconic tradition
(and what are we to make of the artist's intent there ?)
1450: abs or penis?
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George B
Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
Maybe the 40 day fast had something to do with it.
Clearly though he IS emaciated in this image. Skinny arms and legs, visible ribs and prominent collar bones. Jesus on the cross is often depicted as skinny, especially in the iconic tradition
(and what are we to make of the artist's intent there
1450: abs or penis?
The question is . . . are these icons purposeful to fulfill an inside joke as is suggested . . . or monkey see monkey do to one persons original concept, or truly an accurate depiction . . . by-the-way I don't think the 40 day fast in the wilderness was in any way close to the crucifixion . . . he was most likely a healthy, well nourished, 30-33 year old carpenter surrounded by adoring followers who made sure he was fed and cared for . . . . there will always be confusion regarding such a supposed historical event of this importance . . . one possible reason for the image is a political and religious need to elicit as much sympathy for Christ as possible . . .
Day of deathhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_of_Jesus
Tradition (and the Synoptic Gospels) hold that the Last Supper took place on the first night of Passover, which is defined in the Torah as occurring after the daylight of the 14th of Nisan (Lev 23:5-6). However, the Gospel of John implies that at the time of the trial the Jewish leaders had not yet eaten the Passover meal[Jn. 18:28] [149] and states just prior to his sentencing "Now it was the day of Preparation of the Passover. It was about the sixth hour."[Jn. 19:14] John's account places the crucifixion on Nisan 14, since the law mandated the lamb had to be sacrificed between 3:00 pm and 5:00 pm and eaten before midnight on Nisan 14.[150][151][152] This understanding fits well with Old Testament typology, in which Jesus entered Jerusalem to identify himself as the Paschal lamb on Nisan 10[Jn. Ex.] was crucified and died at 3:00 in the afternoon of Nisan 14, at the same time the High Priest would have sacrificed the Paschal lamb,[1 Cor. 5:7] [cf. Isa. 53:7-9] and rose before dawn the morning of Nisan 16, as a type of offering of the First Fruits.[1 Cor. 15:23] [cf. Lev. 23:9-14] However, "the day of preparation" has been seen to mean either the day before Passover or simply Friday; or both.[153]
The chronology presented by John has been viewed as problematic in reconciling with the Synoptic passages and the tradition in that the Last Supper was a Passover meal,[154] placing the crucifixion instead on Nisan 15. However, the apparent contradiction may be resolved by postulating differences in how post-exilic Jews reckoned time.[155] For Jesus and his disciples, the Passover could have begun at dawn Thursday, while for traditional Jews (following Leviticus 23:5), it would not have begun until dusk that same day.[156][157] Another potential solution is that Jesus chose to celebrate the Passover meal a day early with his disciples.[Mt. 26:18] [Lk. 22:15] [158][159]
A small number of Biblical scholars claim the traditional Holy Week calendar is inaccurate and Jesus was crucified on Wednesday, not Friday. This theory is based in part on literal interpretation of the Biblical texts indicating Jesus was dead for three days and three nights.[160][161][162] Mainstream scholars disagree with that and contend that the Jewish idiom "day and night" may refer to any part of a 24 hour period.[163]
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Oh well, we have gone from, 'I'm interested in the whole Isis/Osiris thing' to I don't see any relevance 'how about something more recent. Is this recent enough!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtSVBTne-KY
Then there is this:
http://occultpopagenda.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/superb-owl-worship-high-priestess.html
Another coincidence ???
http://occultpopagenda.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/superb-owl-worship-high-priestess.html
Another coincidence ???
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Returning to the site http://newsok.com/controversial-crucifix-creates-rift-at-warr-acres-church/article/3453833
They took a poll on how many were offended
An icon at St. Charles Borromeo Catholic Church in Warr Acres has created controversy among parishioners. Do you find it offensive?
Yes 48.79% (7,999 votes)
No 51.21% (8,396 votes)
Total Votes: 16,395
So it really isn't as ridiculous as you would try to make out. It is not 'a suspicious few'.
I doubt very much that anyone would have 'owned up' to seeing anything back in the 1200's Would you?
Then there is this:
http://occultpopagenda.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/superb-owl-worship-high-priestess.html
Another coincidence ???
I'm a little unsure as to what is event the coincidence. Other than that being a woman with her hands up, what exactly is the similarity in those images?
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Basically they were shown an image that looks like Jesus with a giant penis, they were fully away (because of the story) that this is what it supposedly looked like, and hence they were offended.
Are you saying that people in the 13C were less likely to notice such things? Of that they did not want to say anything about it?
And you think that this type of thing is evidence of some 1000 year old religion that's been hidden in plain sight, and all the hundreds of thousands of historians in the world are covering it up?
George B
Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
My two cents . . . it is not beyond reason to suggest that artists can and do hide things in plain sight . . . IMO the Icon in question is not an accurate depiction of a well nourished 30 year old carpenter that was executed by Roman authorities . . . and I do think the faithful over the centuries would not, out of respect and reverence for the Icon, suggest such a distasteful representation were there . . . therefore, as crazy as it may sound . . . I vote the speculation is possible . . .
George B
Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
The question is . . . can a group of well educated, informed, sophisticated, elite intellectuals maintain a secret or group of secrets over the centuries from the naive, worshipful populace. My answer is yes . . . they are called secret societies, fraternal orders, guilds, unions, brotherhoods, established priesthoods . . . etc. . . .
An interesting characteristic of such societies has been suggested that they delight in demonstrating their superior position, power and capability by just such a public display right under the nose of the manipulated masses . . . it feeds their egos and fulfills their ethical/legal obligation to inform all of the truth in the midst of their ignorance . . . if they just had the reason and enlightenment to comprehend . . .
An interesting characteristic of such societies has been suggested that they delight in demonstrating their superior position, power and capability by just such a public display right under the nose of the manipulated masses . . . it feeds their egos and fulfills their ethical/legal obligation to inform all of the truth in the midst of their ignorance . . . if they just had the reason and enlightenment to comprehend . . .
I agree.
I would love to prove it wasn't the case so I could rest assured, for the future generations, there is no such thing as NWO, type conspiracy and that our leaders and elite were not capable of 'forcing or enforcing' a dystopic future on us and/or our descendents.
Unfortunately, the more I investigate, the more plausible that conspiracy seems.
It may seem I have had 'a lot to say about it' but in reality I haven't even scratched the surface. To do so, one needs to be open minded and examine not only what things 'appear to be' or what we are 'told they are' but also 'what the wider and hidden implications are' and 'are we being told the truth.
History demonstrates, as a rule of thumb, the more powerful the person or 'entity', the bigger the lies are likely to be.
To quote Jesse Ventura: "Colonel Prouty recognized, and he worked in the Pentagon, he was a direct liaison for ten years between the Pentagon and the CIA. So Colonel Prouty knew everything, basically. And Colonel Prouty always said: nothing just happens. Everything is planned. And I kind of tend to believe that. Nothing just happens. Everything is planned in some way, shape or form."
Apparently slightly more than 50% were not. In fact many claimed not to be able to see it even after it being pointed out to them. Now that is what I call suspicious.
I am saying, in the 13th century people were being horrifically tortured and killed for the slightest of perceived blasphemy in word or deed or happenstance, i.e. an area on their body which had no feeling, (the mark of the devil) etc and I doubt very much that anyone would dare to suggest there was anything untoward with such an effigy. Would you?
"knock and the door will open". It takes little to cover things up, (until now, because of the net). It costs a lot of money and effort to find books containing this type of information. They are not easy to read as the passages are often very ambiguous or sound crazy. Information is on esoteric and exoteric levels, so if you do not know how to understand the esoteric you will simply read the exoteric or 'disinformation.
If you explain it to people, many will become angry and the anger will turn to ridicule of that which they do not understand and the messenger. This stuff is disturbing in the extreme. It turns peoples perception of the world upside down and that is scary and therefore often rejected.
But it is also very much like the penis. Once you have seen it, you cannot unsee it!
George B
Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
I am saying, in the 13th century people were being horrifically tortured and killed for the slightest of perceived blasphemy in word or deed or happenstance, i.e. an area on their body which had no feeling, (the mark of the devil) etc and I doubt very much that anyone would dare to suggest there was anything untoward with such an effigy. Would you?
"knock and the door will open". It takes little to cover things up, (until now, because of the net). It costs a lot of money and effort to find books containing this type of information. They are not easy to read as the passages are often very ambiguous or sound crazy. Information is on esoteric and exoteric levels, so if you do not know how to understand the esoteric you will simply read the exoteric or 'disinformation.
If you explain it to people, many will become angry and the anger will turn to ridicule of that which they do not understand and the messenger. This stuff is disturbing in the extreme. It turns peoples perception of the world upside down and that is scary and therefore often rejected.
George B's comment: Not trying to beat a dead horse but I repeat myself . . . there is a motive . . . it is a rule of behavior . . .
An interesting characteristic of such societies has been suggested that they delight in demonstrating their superior position, power and capability by just such a public display right under the nose of the manipulated masses . . . it feeds their egos and fulfills their ethical/legal obligation to inform all of the truth in the midst of their ignorance . . . if they just had the reason and enlightenment to comprehend . . .
I am posting this link because I think it is germane to the 'format' of this discussion i.e. the polarised positions and the 'tactics used' to promote each viewpoint.
For instance Piers Morgan attempts to ridicule the theories and marginalise them as beliefs held by a weird minority but the audience are having none of it and only one person agrees with him. He tries to promote the 'official version as fact' when clearly it is only a different theory. He ridicules by asking 'and you believe your government is capable of that, how can you bear to live in America with that view?
He lays traps insisting that Jesse must say what he would do about Iran. It is very interesting and here is the link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAmJ9oAy1mc&feature=related
Also a transcript of Q&A
http://www.trutv.com/shows/conspiracy_theory/chat/transcript-2010.html
For instance Piers Morgan attempts to ridicule the theories and marginalise them as beliefs held by a weird minority but the audience are having none of it and only one person agrees with him. He tries to promote the 'official version as fact' when clearly it is only a different theory. He ridicules by asking 'and you believe your government is capable of that, how can you bear to live in America with that view?
He lays traps insisting that Jesse must say what he would do about Iran. It is very interesting and here is the link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAmJ9oAy1mc&feature=related
Also a transcript of Q&A
http://www.trutv.com/shows/conspiracy_theory/chat/transcript-2010.html
What about the 19th, 20th and 21st century? What about historians in those centuries? None of the tens of thousands of mainstream historians noticed this avalanche of sexual symbolism denoting a secret society controlling everything?
George B
Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
Until very recently such discussions would have been considered taboo . . .
When is "very recently"? The 1700s? 1950? 2011?
George B
Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
Recently . . . the last 10 years or so . . . before the Church and a defamation league would have pounced . . . not worth the trouble . . . I don't think until recently the discussion would have gotten beyond a drink at the pub or a late night discussion with like minded scholars for the most part . . . is it possible in 1700 such discussions took place . . . Yes, I think likely . . . behind closed doors that is . . .
That makes no sense to me. Symbolism in art is something that many hundreds of thousands of people have a passing familiarity with.
This discussion reminds me of the people who claim that cloud seeding is a secret conspiracy because not everyone was familiar with it in the 1960s (even though it was in the classified section of local newspapers).
It seem like anything that's not taught to everyone in school is (to the proponents of these theories) some kind of arcane hidden knowledge. Like the City of London stuff. So you get a lot of "people don't realize that ..." and then a bunch of stuff layered on to of this.
What exactly is this giant penis supposed to accomplish? Is it part of a plot by the elite to trick those who discover the truth into marginalizing themselves by appearing ridiculous?
From a personal viewpoint, I could not have found out this information without the internet. Before, we were reliant on 'the accepted media and authorities'. IMO this is why people are now able to educate themselves, as I am doing. Many do not want to see and as the saying goes, 'there are none so blind as those who do not wish to see'.
At least up to the early 1900's the masses were very controlled as to what information they could access, what they could do or say or who they could say it to. People are frightened for their livelihoods and do not want to rock the boat for fear of consequences. Many people are trapped in simply trying to live and supply the things society dictates one must have.
Maslow describes this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs
But many people have been aware and fighting throughout history; some have mysteriously been killed and if not killed, financially, societaly or criminally destroyed.
Some are 'notables' but some don't even make a paragraph or footnote.
Julian Assange is currently being persecuted for exposing stuff. Those with 'more' have more to lose. Others will go along in order to attain wealth. Profiteering without any morals is endemic. "I'm alright Jack' mentality.
Dehumanising opponents or victims, 'they deserve it' mentality.
There is also 'Obedience to Authority' whereby it is proven ordinary people will do outrageous things to others, simply because they are told to. This experiment has been repeated many times and there is much reference and analysis to it
It probably stems from the same route as religion, a comfort that there is a 'higher authority' to make sense of the world around us.
These are simply a few of the very many reasons why it has remained occult. Blood oaths have been taken which still peoples tongues and where there are whistleblowers often they are marginalised, discredited by smear campaigns or in some other way silenced.
The internet has made it possible to dissent where before it was impossible. Knowledge is accessible where before it was inaccessible. Some get it wrong, deliberately or through lack of understanding or insufficient knowledge or rational processing errors. Some have it partially right. I think I fit in the latter group but I am open to new information to change my view.
http://nature.berkeley.edu/ucce50/ag-labor/7article/article35.htm
Why is it so many people obey when they feel coerced? Social psychologist Stanley Milgram researched the effect of authority on obedience. He concluded people obey either out of fear or out of a desire to appear cooperative--even when acting against their own better judgment and desires. Milgram’s classic yet controversial experiment illustrates people's reluctance to confront those who abuse power. It is my opinion that Milgram's book should be required reading (see References below) for anyone in supervisory or management positions.
I have seen many 'debunks' of 'this and that'. Often they rely on a simple premise... 'everything is fine... don't worry... clever authoritative/scientific/kindly people know what is happening and what to do for the best... you do not understand such complexities, leave it to those who know'.
That seems an eminently reasonable argument to me.
It is like George Orwell's novel '1984'. They could have simply taken the guy out but they had to re educate him first... break him down and get him to admit he was wrong, humiliate and destroy him and admit they were right. Only after that was he executed.
George Orwell was allegedly deeply involved in politics and secret matters. Here is just one link but I am sure there are many better ones because I have read them in the past.
http://orwell.ru/a_life/list/english/e_list
So now we have the internet then the jig is up?
Assuming your theory is correct, then it does not seem to have got much traction over the past few years. Is it really more popular than similar theories like the 100 year old Protocols of the Elders of Zion?
George B
Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
No . . . IMO in some ways it is a test of the awakening of the masses. . . . It is something the initiated can point to as a symbol of their ability to reach from ancient times into the present. . . We are well hidden but can demonstrate our presence at anytime we wish. . . .
Another example, I think, is the well discussed Ga Guidestones. . . .simple math tells you what is presented (500,000,000) is either wishful thinking, prophetic speculation or foreknowledge, or a veiled threat. . . . All of which when carved in stone for all to eventually see was obviously calculated to inspire, frighten, warn, or is the same thing the Icon may represent. . . .
Yes the jig is up because of the internet. If you google up ex masons nowadays you can get many many testimonies on what goes on and has gone on for millenia. This could never have been disseminated before.
Here are just a couple of random ones for illustrative purposes...
http://www.emfj.org/washum.htmI thought of the blood oaths I had taken; I thought of the numerous times I had administered them. It had been revealed to me that such oaths are against God’s written word. This same Written Word that the Order supposedly based its rituals on, says in the Book of Matthew that we are not to make any oaths at all; and it particularly spells out that we are not to swear an oath that would change even the color of one hair on our heads. Yet those hideous penalties to the obligations: "..that of having my throat cut across, my tongue torn out, and with my body buried in the sands of the seas at low-water mark…"; "..that of having my left breast torn open, my heart and vitals taken thence, and with my body given as a prey to the vultures of the air…"; and, "..that of having my body severed in twain, my bowels taken thence, etc, etc, etc.,.." I was told by some that it was no big deal; the penalties were only meant to convey to the candidate how important it was to take the obligations seriously. No big deal? If the penalties of the oaths were that frivolous, then that was all the more reason we should not be swearing them to God.
http://www.delusionresistance.org/christian/jim_shaw.htmlSoon after returning home I received a call from the Secretary of the Scottish Rite telling me to prepare for the upcoming Maundy Thursday services prior to Easter. I can tell you that the Lodges always make a mockery of Christian Holy Days. Now I was Master of all degree work and had to conduct the service.We had the Black Mass, drinking wind from a skull and eating a piece of bread, passing it around the table saying to each man, "take, drink, and give to the thirsty. Take, eat, and give to the hungry." Then we all went back to our stations. As I got up, my knees were shaking. I knew what fear was, and I had never felt anything like this since being shot at in the Army. I stood and began to recite the closing words. "We now close this commemoration of the death of our master. MOURN!! LAMENT!! CRY ALOUD!! HE IS GONE!! NEVER TO RETURN!! MOURN!! LAMENT!!" The candles were extinguished one at a time. I closed the ceremony by saying, "it is over, we must depart."
In the meantime my wife and I had begun attending church with the ophthalmologist. He was still helping me understand the Bible and did not like the idea of me being a Mason. He told me he didn't think I understood just how evil the Lodge really was, and he urged me to read thoughtfully the books of John and Galatians. I studied these books and was on the verge of accepting Christ. But to become fully convinced I had yet to go through the Maundy Thursday ritual itself.
It is similar to other cults like ex scientologists or moonies etc
Only now can the secrets be revealed.
Here are a couple more but the rest I'll leave it there...
http://www.angelfire.com/music2/fullcircle/Symbols.html
http://www.angelfire.com/music2/fullcircle/Symbols.html
http://www.bibleprobe.com/freemasonry.htmIt is safe to say that we are living in an information society. The whole world is connected to the largest data base for information and knowledge that this planet has ever seen, anything and everything that a person wants information on can be found simply by searching the internet. And yet we still claim ignorance when we are presented with real truth about our traditions and religious doctrines and where those beliefs were birthed. With our ability to find the truth it is no longer good enough to say "I believe this way because my grandfather believed this way." Before I was saved and transformed by Jesus I practiced witchcraft, I had studied the subject for 15 years and I learned a great deal about the science and the Symbolism of it. As I learned about it's symbols I started to notice that these same symbols were being used in our government and one symbol that sparked my curiosty was on the American dollar. I often wondered why this was, that an ancient symbol of witchcraft was on our own money, how did it get there, who put it there, obviously since it is a "Federal note printed by the Federal Government" it had to have been placed there by people who had a powerful influence on the Government during the time of it's initial design. I decided the best way to find out how, and by whom it was placed on our money was to study the symbol and find out what it represents, and so I did just that. Now that I have completed my studies and gathered all the evidence and compiled it together, I found that the big picture is very interesting and I think it's a picture that I should display as public knowledge.
In Freemasonry the god of the secret societies is covertly substituted for the One True God. This false god is identified in the Masonic lodges as "the Great Architect.
Masons repeatedly are directed to the "Mystery Religion" and the time man found God in nature. Almost none of Masonry's teachings come from Christianity. This 'mystery religion' Masons have joined originated from pagans in ancient Egypt, Chaldea, and in China. The Mystery Religion, Freemasonry and all 'ancient' secret societies have one thing in common. They string you along, just to finally tell you that there is no God; and you are a god, because you follow their teachings, which are:
As a Mason you will be led and hoodwinked into believing there is useful knowledge to be learned in Masonry. This is the 'hook', and in each level you will be disappointed with these so-called Secrets, which are all frivolous, made up, and insignificant. This so-called 'knowledge' will also be monetarily costly, and very time consuming -- away from your family. It is the lure of curiosity and nothing more that will be satisfied by Masonry.
You will be made to 'swear' things and take 'solemn oaths'; and in doing so, to act against your conscience as both a Christian and an American. These oaths and pledges will in time act upon your conscience in such the same way as a Christian who has knowingly taken the mark of the beast.
Oxy, would I be right in assuming you are (or were brought up) a devout christian?
Because my sense is that the things you are talking about have very little resonance to non-christians. It all seems like some rather specific and arcane concerns that to have any real impact outside of particular corners of the christian church (if that).
Because my sense is that the things you are talking about have very little resonance to non-christians. It all seems like some rather specific and arcane concerns that to have any real impact outside of particular corners of the christian church (if that).
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