Are they real, just unexplained occurrences or are they illusions?
Both. But I think you are opening up a whole new set of topics here George. Care to narrow it down?
Are they real, just unexplained occurrences or are they illusions?
I am not sure where to go with it . . . I am just voicing questions as they pop into my head . . . if you have a desired direction please go forward with it . . .Both. But I think you are opening up a whole new set of topics here George. Care to narrow it down?
I am not sure where to go with it . . . I am just voicing questions as they pop into my head . . . if you have a desired direction please go forward with it . . .
I always though the Isis, Osiris thing was more a Masonic Order thing and not that closely aligned with Christian history . . . I would be interested in a discussion about what you suggested . . .Not really. I was interested in how the "Isis and Osiris" thing was supposed to work. But all I've got so far is the penis stuff, with the implication that the christian church is somehow really still pagan.
Your take is as good as anyone's . . . seems it is all academic speculation . . . what we know for sure is it is a uninersal human trait . . .My own personal belief is that religion was created in order to explain the unkown - the sun rising and setting, the progression of the seasons, the good or bad hunting. By inventing a deity who could control these things, and pretending we could affect the behaviour of such a deity "we" (humans) gained some illusion of control over these otherwise unfathomable aspects of the universe. I can't tell you who I got this idea from -as it was a while ago now - rest assured I am not capable of such deep and original thought
Following this reasoning I "explain" those things as something "we" do not yet fully understand but have invented a religious (mythical IMO) explaination for to assuage our ignorance.
However science seems to be drawing back the veil of ignorance on the possiession/exorcism side of things slowly - possession is now often though to be epilepsy, or, more recently possibly also anti-NMDA receptor encephalitis
Religious observance, in its primitive form… is a bond between subjects, in a world of objects. Through religious observance people enter together into the sphere beyond nature. ...
The rituals are essentially shared, and each subject, repeating the magic words, or performing the magic gestures, is freed for a moment from the world of objects, flowing freely into a 'mystic communion' with the other subjects who worship at his side. No ordinary commerce between people could achieve this effect, since ordinary commerce depends on negotiation, consent, and a respect for rights and duties, and therefore assumes the subject to be alone and inviolable in his sovereign territory, shut up in a fortress which he alone can occupy. The 'first-person plural' of the religious rite overcomes this isolation and creates, for a brief but necessary moment, the sense that we stand together outside nature, sharing the subjective viewpoint which otherwise we know only as 'mine'.
But the thought of this supernatural sphere gives rise to the idea of a transcendental perspective: a view which is not from the subject, onto the world of objects, but onto the subject, seeing the self as it truly is.
...
The religious ritual overcomes our loneliness; but without God this 'collective subjectivity' hovers on the verge of illusion. With God, the illusion becomes reality, subjectivity becomes another and higher objectivity, and we take our place in the realm where subjects are fully at home with each other and transparently known. We are not merely consoled, but redeemed, and this metaphysical redemption changes daily life.
For, as I argued in the last chapter, the self-conscious being casts judgement on himself, and this judgement has a timeless character: it cannot be overcome in the world of objects, but only by an inner renewal, which removes the stain of guilt. Guilt remains just so long as subject and object are divided, the first standing in judgement over the second. But God, who sees subject as object, heals the rift between them, 'purifies' them of their common pollution, and launches them as one into the world of self-conscious choice.
It comes with the turf. We're all equal. I believe existential anxiety to be proportional to neuronal connections. Even a spider can throw a tizzy fit... we've just got more of them. Thanks for the post.I obviously failed to live up to the title
As an aside, years ago I worked as a programmer on a game, and the artist actually was prone to inserting hidden phalli in the artwork. Here's the cover for the game with a rather prominent example.
However he was not part of any ancient conspiracy or hidden religion, he just found it amusing.
Not really. I was interested in how the "Isis and Osiris" thing was supposed to work. But all I've got so far is the penis stuff, with the implication that the christian church is somehow really still pagan.
Why would one depict Christ as emaciated . . . I don't think there is evidence of that fact in the scriptures or historical sources or Church history . . . ??It's the skeletal thumb.
The abs=penis thing might be obvious to you, but can you explain why it would necessarily be obvious to the artist, and why simultaneously nobody seemed to notice this until a few years ago?
I think most, if not all, of the Disney instances (the ones that I've seen) were also accidental - or not even that, more like an extreme reach on the part of the person looking for such things, and then simply "priming" allowing people to see it later (like with the thumb in the game cover). I mean, it's really quite a reach to see a penis in this image, when it's clearly just a depiction of an emaciated man
The other images are copies of older images. The shading became more stylized over time, with the unfortunate result we have today.
I imagine that you remain unconvinced. But the average person just sees this particular argument as ridiculous - it's "those people who see sex everywhere". Even if you disagree, you really need to find some more compelling evidence. I don't imagine this sexual imagery is the entirety of your case, so what's the remainder of the evidence? [Edit: I see you posted some above]
Why would one depict Christ as emaciated . . . I don't think there is evidence of that fact in the scriptures or historical sources or Church history . . . ??
Maybe the 40 day fast had something to do with it.
Clearly though he IS emaciated in this image. Skinny arms and legs, visible ribs and prominent collar bones. Jesus on the cross is often depicted as skinny, especially in the iconic tradition
(and what are we to make of the artist's intent there
1450: abs or penis?
Day of deathhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_of_Jesus
Tradition (and the Synoptic Gospels) hold that the Last Supper took place on the first night of Passover, which is defined in the Torah as occurring after the daylight of the 14th of Nisan (Lev 23:5-6). However, the Gospel of John implies that at the time of the trial the Jewish leaders had not yet eaten the Passover meal[Jn. 18:28] [149] and states just prior to his sentencing "Now it was the day of Preparation of the Passover. It was about the sixth hour."[Jn. 19:14] John's account places the crucifixion on Nisan 14, since the law mandated the lamb had to be sacrificed between 3:00 pm and 5:00 pm and eaten before midnight on Nisan 14.[150][151][152] This understanding fits well with Old Testament typology, in which Jesus entered Jerusalem to identify himself as the Paschal lamb on Nisan 10[Jn. Ex.] was crucified and died at 3:00 in the afternoon of Nisan 14, at the same time the High Priest would have sacrificed the Paschal lamb,[1 Cor. 5:7] [cf. Isa. 53:7-9] and rose before dawn the morning of Nisan 16, as a type of offering of the First Fruits.[1 Cor. 15:23] [cf. Lev. 23:9-14] However, "the day of preparation" has been seen to mean either the day before Passover or simply Friday; or both.[153]
The chronology presented by John has been viewed as problematic in reconciling with the Synoptic passages and the tradition in that the Last Supper was a Passover meal,[154] placing the crucifixion instead on Nisan 15. However, the apparent contradiction may be resolved by postulating differences in how post-exilic Jews reckoned time.[155] For Jesus and his disciples, the Passover could have begun at dawn Thursday, while for traditional Jews (following Leviticus 23:5), it would not have begun until dusk that same day.[156][157] Another potential solution is that Jesus chose to celebrate the Passover meal a day early with his disciples.[Mt. 26:18] [Lk. 22:15] [158][159]
A small number of Biblical scholars claim the traditional Holy Week calendar is inaccurate and Jesus was crucified on Wednesday, not Friday. This theory is based in part on literal interpretation of the Biblical texts indicating Jesus was dead for three days and three nights.[160][161][162] Mainstream scholars disagree with that and contend that the Jewish idiom "day and night" may refer to any part of a 24 hour period.[163]
Okay having read your links, I see it just seems to be "those people who see sex everywhere" and "Christmas used to be a pagan festival", which as I noted was something we were taught in school (Catholic school at that).
I don't think this is going anywhere. Can you give some evidence about something that actually happened in the last 50 years that ties in with your theory?
It's the skeletal thumb.
The abs=penis thing might be obvious to you, but can you explain why it would necessarily be obvious to the artist, and why simultaneously nobody seemed to notice this until a few years ago?
I imagine that you remain unconvinced. But the average person just sees this particular argument as ridiculous - it's "those people who see sex everywhere". Even if you disagree, you really need to find some more compelling evidence. I don't imagine this sexual imagery is the entirety of your case, so what's the remainder of the evidence? [Edit: I see you posted some above]
Then there is this:
http://occultpopagenda.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/superb-owl-worship-high-priestess.html
Another coincidence ???
Returning to the site http://newsok.com/controversial-crucifix-creates-rift-at-warr-acres-church/article/3453833
They took a poll on how many were offended
An icon at St. Charles Borromeo Catholic Church in Warr Acres has created controversy among parishioners. Do you find it offensive?
Yes 48.79% (7,999 votes)
No 51.21% (8,396 votes)
Total Votes: 16,395
So it really isn't as ridiculous as you would try to make out. It is not 'a suspicious few'.
I doubt very much that anyone would have 'owned up' to seeing anything back in the 1200's Would you?
My two cents . . . it is not beyond reason to suggest that artists can and do hide things in plain sight . . . IMO the Icon in question is not an accurate depiction of a well nourished 30 year old carpenter that was executed by Roman authorities . . . and I do think the faithful over the centuries would not, out of respect and reverence for the Icon, suggest such a distasteful representation were there . . . therefore, as crazy as it may sound . . . I vote the speculation is possible . . .Basically they were shown an image that looks like Jesus with a giant penis, they were fully away (because of the story) that this is what it supposedly looked like, and hence they were offended.
Are you saying that people in the 13C were less likely to notice such things? Of that they did not want to say anything about it?
And you think that this type of thing is evidence of some 1000 year old religion that's been hidden in plain sight, and all the hundreds of thousands of historians in the world are covering it up?
The question is . . . can a group of well educated, informed, sophisticated, elite intellectuals maintain a secret or group of secrets over the centuries from the naive, worshipful populace. My answer is yes . . . they are called secret societies, fraternal orders, guilds, unions, brotherhoods, established priesthoods . . . etc. . . .
Basically they were shown an image that looks like Jesus with a giant penis, they were fully away (because of the story) that this is what it supposedly looked like, and hence they were offended.
Are you saying that people in the 13C were less likely to notice such things? Of that they did not want to say anything about it?
And you think that this type of thing is evidence of some 1000 year old religion that's been hidden in plain sight, and all the hundreds of thousands of historians in the world are covering it up?
Apparently slightly more than 50% were not. In fact many claimed not to be able to see it even after it being pointed out to them. Now that is what I call suspicious.
Are you saying that people in the 13C were less likely to notice such things? Of that they did not want to say anything about it?
And you think that this type of thing is evidence of some 1000 year old religion that's been hidden in plain sight, and all the hundreds of thousands of historians in the world are covering it up?
But it is also very much like the penis. Once you have seen it, you cannot unsee it!
George B's comment: Not trying to beat a dead horse but I repeat myself . . . there is a motive . . . it is a rule of behavior . . .
An interesting characteristic of such societies has been suggested that they delight in demonstrating their superior position, power and capability by just such a public display right under the nose of the manipulated masses . . . it feeds their egos and fulfills their ethical/legal obligation to inform all of the truth in the midst of their ignorance . . . if they just had the reason and enlightenment to comprehend . . .
I am saying, in the 13th century people were being horrifically tortured and killed for the slightest of perceived blasphemy in word or deed or happenstance, i.e. an area on their body which had no feeling, (the mark of the devil) etc and I doubt very much that anyone would dare to suggest there was anything untoward with such an effigy. Would you?
Until very recently such discussions would have been considered taboo . . .What about the 19th, 20th and 21st century? What about historians in those centuries? None of the tens of thousands of mainstream historians noticed this avalanche of sexual symbolism denoting a secret society controlling everything?
Until very recently such discussions would have been considered taboo . . .
Recently . . . the last 10 years or so . . . before the Church and a defamation league would have pounced . . . not worth the trouble . . . I don't think until recently the discussion would have gotten beyond a drink at the pub or a late night discussion with like minded scholars for the most part . . . is it possible in 1700 such discussions took place . . . Yes, I think likely . . . behind closed doors that is . . .When is "very recently"? The 1700s? 1950? 2011?
Recently . . . the last 10 years or so . . . before the Church and a defamation league would have pounced . . . not worth the trouble . . . I don't think until recently the discussion would have gotten beyond a drink at the pub or a late night discussion with like minded scholars for the most part . . . is it possible in 1700 such discussions took place . . . Yes, I think likely . . . behind closed doors that is . . .
When is "very recently"? The 1700s? 1950? 2011?
The question is . . . can a group of well educated, informed, sophisticated, elite intellectuals maintain a secret or group of secrets over the centuries from the naive, worshipful populace. My answer is yes . . . they are called secret societies, fraternal orders, guilds, unions, brotherhoods, established priesthoods . . . etc. . . .
An interesting characteristic of such societies has been suggested that they delight in demonstrating their superior position, power and capability by just such a public display right under the nose of the manipulated masses . . . it feeds their egos and fulfills their ethical/legal obligation to inform all of the truth in the midst of their ignorance . . . if they just had the reason and enlightenment to comprehend . . .
From a personal viewpoint, I could not have found out this information without the internet. Before, we were reliant on 'the accepted media and authorities'. IMO this is why people are now able to educate themselves, as I am doing. Many do not want to see and as the saying goes, 'there are none so blind as those who do not wish to see'.
At least up to the early 1900's the masses were very controlled as to what information they could access, what they could do or say or who they could say it to. People are frightened for their livelihoods and do not want to rock the boat for fear of consequences. Many people are trapped in simply trying to live and supply the things society dictates one must have.
No . . . IMO in some ways it is a test of the awakening of the masses. . . . It is something the initiated can point to as a symbol of their ability to reach from ancient times into the present. . . We are well hidden but can demonstrate our presence at anytime we wish. . . .That makes no sense to me. Symbolism in art is something that many hundreds of thousands of people have a passing familiarity with.
This discussion reminds me of the people who claim that cloud seeding is a secret conspiracy because not everyone was familiar with it in the 1960s (even though it was in the classified section of local newspapers).
It seem like anything that's not taught to everyone in school is (to the proponents of these theories) some kind of arcane hidden knowledge. Like the City of London stuff. So you get a lot of "people don't realize that ..." and then a bunch of stuff layered on to of this.
What exactly is this giant penis supposed to accomplish? Is it part of a plot by the elite to trick those who discover the truth into marginalizing themselves by appearing ridiculous?
What about the 19th, 20th and 21st century? What about historians in those centuries? None of the tens of thousands of mainstream historians noticed this avalanche of sexual symbolism denoting a secret society controlling everything?
http://www.emfj.org/washum.htmI thought of the blood oaths I had taken; I thought of the numerous times I had administered them. It had been revealed to me that such oaths are against God’s written word. This same Written Word that the Order supposedly based its rituals on, says in the Book of Matthew that we are not to make any oaths at all; and it particularly spells out that we are not to swear an oath that would change even the color of one hair on our heads. Yet those hideous penalties to the obligations: "..that of having my throat cut across, my tongue torn out, and with my body buried in the sands of the seas at low-water mark…"; "..that of having my left breast torn open, my heart and vitals taken thence, and with my body given as a prey to the vultures of the air…"; and, "..that of having my body severed in twain, my bowels taken thence, etc, etc, etc.,.." I was told by some that it was no big deal; the penalties were only meant to convey to the candidate how important it was to take the obligations seriously. No big deal? If the penalties of the oaths were that frivolous, then that was all the more reason we should not be swearing them to God.
http://www.delusionresistance.org/christian/jim_shaw.htmlSoon after returning home I received a call from the Secretary of the Scottish Rite telling me to prepare for the upcoming Maundy Thursday services prior to Easter. I can tell you that the Lodges always make a mockery of Christian Holy Days. Now I was Master of all degree work and had to conduct the service.We had the Black Mass, drinking wind from a skull and eating a piece of bread, passing it around the table saying to each man, "take, drink, and give to the thirsty. Take, eat, and give to the hungry." Then we all went back to our stations. As I got up, my knees were shaking. I knew what fear was, and I had never felt anything like this since being shot at in the Army. I stood and began to recite the closing words. "We now close this commemoration of the death of our master. MOURN!! LAMENT!! CRY ALOUD!! HE IS GONE!! NEVER TO RETURN!! MOURN!! LAMENT!!" The candles were extinguished one at a time. I closed the ceremony by saying, "it is over, we must depart."
In the meantime my wife and I had begun attending church with the ophthalmologist. He was still helping me understand the Bible and did not like the idea of me being a Mason. He told me he didn't think I understood just how evil the Lodge really was, and he urged me to read thoughtfully the books of John and Galatians. I studied these books and was on the verge of accepting Christ. But to become fully convinced I had yet to go through the Maundy Thursday ritual itself.
http://www.bibleprobe.com/freemasonry.htmIt is safe to say that we are living in an information society. The whole world is connected to the largest data base for information and knowledge that this planet has ever seen, anything and everything that a person wants information on can be found simply by searching the internet. And yet we still claim ignorance when we are presented with real truth about our traditions and religious doctrines and where those beliefs were birthed. With our ability to find the truth it is no longer good enough to say "I believe this way because my grandfather believed this way." Before I was saved and transformed by Jesus I practiced witchcraft, I had studied the subject for 15 years and I learned a great deal about the science and the Symbolism of it. As I learned about it's symbols I started to notice that these same symbols were being used in our government and one symbol that sparked my curiosty was on the American dollar. I often wondered why this was, that an ancient symbol of witchcraft was on our own money, how did it get there, who put it there, obviously since it is a "Federal note printed by the Federal Government" it had to have been placed there by people who had a powerful influence on the Government during the time of it's initial design. I decided the best way to find out how, and by whom it was placed on our money was to study the symbol and find out what it represents, and so I did just that. Now that I have completed my studies and gathered all the evidence and compiled it together, I found that the big picture is very interesting and I think it's a picture that I should display as public knowledge.
In Freemasonry the god of the secret societies is covertly substituted for the One True God. This false god is identified in the Masonic lodges as "the Great Architect.
Masons repeatedly are directed to the "Mystery Religion" and the time man found God in nature. Almost none of Masonry's teachings come from Christianity. This 'mystery religion' Masons have joined originated from pagans in ancient Egypt, Chaldea, and in China. The Mystery Religion, Freemasonry and all 'ancient' secret societies have one thing in common. They string you along, just to finally tell you that there is no God; and you are a god, because you follow their teachings, which are:
As a Mason you will be led and hoodwinked into believing there is useful knowledge to be learned in Masonry. This is the 'hook', and in each level you will be disappointed with these so-called Secrets, which are all frivolous, made up, and insignificant. This so-called 'knowledge' will also be monetarily costly, and very time consuming -- away from your family. It is the lure of curiosity and nothing more that will be satisfied by Masonry.
You will be made to 'swear' things and take 'solemn oaths'; and in doing so, to act against your conscience as both a Christian and an American. These oaths and pledges will in time act upon your conscience in such the same way as a Christian who has knowingly taken the mark of the beast.